Do people not care enough or does the game do a bad job at teaching?

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Sadly all the MSQ stuff is so easy it doesn't require you to do anything but bare minimum. There is no reason to get good if even your worst is enough to some people.

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Came here to post this

People will get the dungeon clear, the MSQ trial clear, even the Alliance and normal raids clears; they are not punished for not playing their job correctly, or for playing it on an incredibly low level... why would they read a guide? Why would they ever notice Freecure fishing is bad when they keep doing it and tanks keep tanking because a geared tank can clear most dungeons on level solo?

It is 100% a problem of the game not being more exigent on content.

As for the SAM question, iirc no, it doesn't require to do anything. Some job quests give rotational hints, I played RPR recently and the job mentor basically lays out for you the main rotation flow and positionals in chat while you're fighting, but SAM doesn't do that, it gives you enemies and you can do them "correctly" or faceroll and struggle, and maybe wipe and do them on very easy. I might be recalling the first fight wrong though.

As for my TFDF, I have encountered bad no mit tanks and bad low thoroughput heal spammers, and it's never been a problem enough to call them out. Because again, the clear was guaranteed, it's not my job to teach anyone how to play, and in a dungeon where we're busy running from one pull to the next, starting an argument wastes more time than just doing the pulls "incorrectly". The most i've done was recently in LotA, I saw lots of Doton so threw a "Doton on single target is a dps loss" in Alliance chat once... Iirc it worked!

mistook as meme thread, sry

I started out in EQ, which teaches you absolutely nothing about anything so for me this seems like there is already a lot of hand holding in XIV. It seems like what people want the game to do is essentially light up all your skills when you're supposed to use them in a rotation, or show an in game video of the perfect rotation for players to copy.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

I started out in EQ, which teaches you absolutely nothing about anything so for me this seems like there is already a lot of hand holding in XIV. It seems like what people want the game to do is essentially light up all your skills when you're supposed to use them in a rotation, or show an in game video of the perfect rotation for players to copy.

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It's less of a case of "want" and more of a case of "need".

I WANT people to do the legwork themselves to have at least a basic understanding of how to do their job when playing with other people, but that just isn't going to happen, people can't even be bothered to read their tooltips.
So some kind of tutorial at some point in the MSQ that holds the players' hands is more of a necessity than anything else.


The Hall of the Novice is both too outdated and too optional so it doesn't suffice.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

As for the SAM question, iirc no, it doesn't require to do anything. Some job quests give rotational hints, I played RPR recently and the job mentor basically lays out for you the main rotation flow and positionals in chat while you're fighting, but SAM doesn't do that, it gives you enemies and you can do them "correctly" or faceroll and struggle, and maybe wipe and do them on very easy. I might be recalling the first fight wrong though.

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SGE also does try to teach you the basics, Lalah is set up to be your designated Tank, and the game will outright demand you to perform some basic actions like set up Kardia on her, but that's the extent of it, at no point the game tries to have her say "Hey I don't need healing right now so you should try to attack as much as possible, don't worry I got this." or anything like that, it also has that on the second quest, you can pick up SGE and walk away from her, and not be negatively impacted by that in any way until you are level 80 at which point you would need to complete the questline for Panhaima.

The game doesn't do the best job at teaching, but it is an MMORPG with so many things to teach. If I were teaching a single person every little nuance and the technical ins-outs in the game, they would probably just need to spend months or even a year or more talking to me.

There is Active Help. This is actually pretty good, in theory, it's just that because there is so much, people are unlikely to read it or even don't understand the game enough to click the ? and read it. They may misread it as well.

It's not necessarily that people don't care, but a lot of people you meet in dungeons are new, returning players, casual players or leveling an alt job they are unfamiliar with. A lot of the time they may just be trying to experience the story and that is their priority. Being good at playing is something they would usually worry about when they are actually through it. It is common for them to be fighting with default settings, HUD and keybinds which doesn't help.

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Originally Posted by WantlessYoYo

This was a SAM, tower of Zot, multiple jobs at 90 already who basically didn't knew anything about their Iajutsu, noticed when pulls were taking longer than normal and only saw 1 of the buffs on their chars and never a Tenka Goken(SAM AOE Iajutsu) and later on a midare

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When SAM released I saw this middle one and thought it looked quite obnoxious that Tenka Goken was stuck in the middle there, so I looked for my aoe combo and saw this applied 2 of the symbols and it made more sense. So perhaps they just never looked or didn't know that aoe exists like a lot of people.

I used to feel that mob packs took ages to die when I would tank dungeons and it felt that I was doing my tank aoe for an eternity. This went on for most of the years that I played the game, but started to change in Shadowbringers with the second combo and extra aoe and even more in Endwalker, where a Paladin has this bursty magic that wrecks enemies all on its own.

But it never took very long on the few occasions I would play or level a DPS and I mean every single DPS job. I was reducing mob packs to dust extremely quickly and began to wonder why it was never like this when I tanked. The answer seems obvious. People were usually undergeared or didn't aoe properly (or at all).

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Originally Posted by VeyaAkemi

SGE [has the tutorial battle] on the second quest, you can pick up SGE and walk away from her, and not be negatively impacted by that in any way until you are level 80 at which point you would need to complete the questline for Panhaima.

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I think that's just the nature of the quest structure – the only way to give you the gear and soul crystal is through a quest reward, so that happens, and then the following quest is job-restricted to ensure you've equipped the things before continuing. Most (all?) expansion jobs follow this structure of putting a tutorial battle in the second quest, even back in Heavensward.

Perhaps if the second quest wasn't job-restricted, you could go into the solo instance as any job. (Hmm, I wonder if ARR lets you into MSQ solo instances on non-battle jobs...?)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I think if you want to cater to the audience as large as FFXIV ...

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You know, I appreciate you. Even if every post you write is an entire essay. You're so wholesome. No sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I think that's just the nature of the quest structure – the only way to give you the gear and soul crystal is through a quest reward, so that happens, and then the following quest is job-restricted to ensure you've equipped the things before continuing. Most (all?) expansion jobs follow this structure of putting a tutorial battle in the second quest, even back in Heavensward.

Perhaps if the second quest wasn't job-restricted, you could go into the solo instance as any job. (Hmm, I wonder if ARR lets you into MSQ solo instances on non-battle jobs...?)

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Yeah, I understand part of it is that the game is limited to needing you to have the job unlocked to enter the tutorial, perhaps they could load you into a NPC kit with limited moveset for the tutorial, like, say, Dosis, Diagnosis, Prognosis, Eukrasia, Druochole, Ixochole, Kerachole, Physis II and Kardia, it'd fit a single hotbar, give you enough of an understanding of SGE basics, and give you some oGCD to work with, and narratively you could prove yourself a Sage to Lalah before she hands you the Soul Crystal rather than you being the rock's chosen one, but that would also have issues of awkward hotbar set up, so it wouldn't be ideal either, but it is the best I can suggest.

My perfect solution for that problem:

- Remove the mentor system so we don't have to deal with whining mentors anymore who can't read their job description.

- SE should give players a preset hotbar and shouldn't just slap new actions all over the 1-9 keys. Don't know why this is even a thing, you pick up a lvl 70 job and your whole hotbar looks like the aftermath of a college student party by default. That is just toxic game design and lazy and totally SE fault. Just give people a premade setup for their hotbar, the most common one and if they then want to change it cause they understand what the stuff does and how the rotation works then just let them change it.

- Make story fights hard again, like in ARR and HW when you were bad at your job you wouldn't get past the instanced fights. That way people would be maybe actually forced or motivated to learn how to play properly.