So why are the crafter relics.. bad.

Broke: Obesessing with minor stat differences.

Woke: "Hey yeah bruh it looks shiny as fug."

Bespoke: "Hey yeah bruh it looks shiny as fug and it is notably better for the stuff that really matters."

...I need to get around getting those.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

Well, consider how many expert recipes are currently in the game.

Anything below level 80, from patch 5.55 could just be brute forced through the use of macros using purple script gear. This includes the skysteel tool recipes.

Now how many endwalker expert recipes currently exist? And should a relic be designed around a niche crafting system that is barely used? No.

The relic should provide a perk that is used in every part of crafting, whether its something as simple as 'recipes have a 1% chance to save a material at completion for each step during the craft'

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You can literally say this just about everything in this game. Do we really need savage gear even though the content is clearable with the bare minimum entry gear you already have? Do we really need to have Ultimates for the small percentage of people that do em?

Also not everyone is going to have indigator tools because A. lack of money B. lack of patience to craft it themselves (or lack the required jobs) and C. Macro crafts only is viable for the people whom pentameld their gear. Not everyone is going to be on the same playing field so the relic is useful for a lot of people than you may think for an easy way to get catch up tools.


Please, actually start using your brain

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Um...because they're obviously more steps to it later down the road?

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Will there, though?

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Originally Posted by Canadane

Will there, though?

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maybe, maybe not

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Macro crafts only is viable for the people whom pentameld their gear.

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You just exposed yourself as having no idea what you are talking about.

Macro crafts are useable by EVERYONE. All Pentamelding does it shorten the required steps to make the items.

Every single piece of 6.1/6.3 gear was craftable with purple script gear from the vendor, it just took extra steps to achieve the same result.

Crafter relics follow the same principle as combat relics i.e. not meta until long past when players would actually want to use them. They are just glamour goals and it sucks tbh. SE doesn't want to invalidate crafted gear and eat into the player economy right away which is probably a reason for them being underpowered on release compared to crafted tools.

However, the extra stats you'll get from the crafted Mainhand tool are most likely overkill anyway for macro crafting the new 6.4 gear. I wasn't max melded for both previous tiers and still mananged to HQ everything comfortably with the same max-meld macro that was known.

Expert recipes are whatever for the moment but they probably will just be used to ease some side content not related to player battle power aka glamour/housing/mounts/titles.

I recommend reading this fully.

All credit to OP:

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Originally Posted by dspguy

TL;DR Use the Crystalline Tool for Expert Recipes. It is far superior after just 1* Good.

I wanted to add some notes I made about the Crystalline Tools and their "good" bonus, as far as expert recipes goes.

With the current tier of available tools - we either have pentalmelded Indagator or unmeldable Crystalline. The latter comes with 7 CP on it and equal craftsmanship/control. However, without those melds, we are probably leaving off upwards of 60 control. Which begs the question, is the extra 25% on a good better than 60 control when expert recipes are concerned?

The loss of that much control costs around 0.78% of quality per hit. So, if a Touch would hit for 500 with the Crystalline Tool, it hits for 504 instead. We can extrapolate out its value by working backwards from our goal. I'll use the Island Sanctuary Water Otter Fountain parts for this example. We need 13500 quality to synth it.

Let's pretend that the Crystalline Tool had two options - the 25% bonus to Good states or 60 control. This is essentially the Crystalline vs Indagator's tool.

Let's say I normally hit for 3945 on a Great Strides / Innovation / Byregots with the Indagator Tool. I'll hit for 3915 with the Crystalline Tool. A loss of 30 quality. Which means that I need to get to 9555 with the Indagator's Tool vs 9585 with the Crystalline Tool in order to finish (without a good state). However, let's change these numbers in relation to the Crystalline Tool. Since that tool is getting 0.78% less quality per hit, the Indagator's Tool would need only an equivalent of 9480 if it was the Crystalline Tool but with the extra 60 control.

Essentially, that means that 60 control buys us 105 quality over the course of the synth, prior to finishing it.

Is the Good bonus better?

If we get a Good with 0 IQ stacks and use something like Precise Touch, we get 580 from Indagator's (60 control bonus) vs 672 with the Crystalline Tool. That's 92 of the 105 quality to close the gap. If we have a good state at any point past an IQ stack of 2, the difference in control of the two tools is already overtaken.

In those cases where you need to fish for a good using Careful Observation, the threshold you need to hit 13500 is much more stark. With the Cyrstalline Tool, you will receive 6851 quality. With Indagator Tools, you'll receive 5917. That's 934 extra quality. Working backwards, that means that if you have to rely on luck, the Crystalline Tool could conceivably reach the quality threshold with as little as 6650 quality (if you are at 10 stacks) whereas you'd need 7583 with the Indagator Tool.

While many of these numbers were specific to my melds, changes to control won't make the Indagator Tools superior for expert recipes. Generally speaking, landing 1 touch on a Good at any point brings you even or ahead. Any other Good used on a Touch is gravy. I've found that even with catastrophic RNG early on, if you care to work through the synth, in the hopes of leveraging Careful Observation and Observe to fish for a Good, you can turn very bad RNG into success if you get that little bit of luck at the end. It isn't hard to get to 6800ish quality if you know you just aren't going to get to 9500 due to really band RNG. At least you have up to 5 shots at fishing for a Good.

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In short, the Crystalline tools are invaluable when it comes to expert recipes. If you do those recipes, you will know exactly how important it is to maximize the quality you get from a good status. The effectiveness only continues to outshine the crafted tools with each stack of inner quite. Also don't forget that you need to pentameld all eight of your tools in order to get the control required to even compete with the relic tools. If you're a single melder with the crafted tools this isn't even a discussion to be had.

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Originally Posted by Kikosho

Crafter relics follow the same principle as combat relics i.e. not meta until long past when players would actually want to use them. They are just glamour goals and it sucks tbh. SE doesn't want to invalidate crafted gear and eat into the player economy right away which is probably a reason for them being underpowered on release compared to crafted tools.

However, the extra stats you'll get from the crafted Mainhand tool are most likely overkill anyway for macro crafting the new 6.4 gear. I wasn't max melded for both previous tiers and still mananged to HQ everything comfortably with the same max-meld macro that was known.

Expert recipes are whatever for the moment but they probably will just be used to ease some side content not related to player battle power aka glamour/housing/mounts/titles.

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First paragraph basically explains the feeling perfectly.

The stats are 100% not necessary, its just bad when new stuff comes out and its just a downgrade for day to day use.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I recommend reading this fully.

All credit to OP:



In short, the Crystalline tools are invaluable when it comes to expert recipes. If you do those recipes, you will know exactly how important it is to maximize the quality you get from a good status. The effectiveness only continues to outshine the crafted tools with each stack of inner quite. Also don't forget that you need to pentameld all eight of your tools in order to get the control required to even compete with the relic tools. If you're a single melder with the crafted tools this isn't even a discussion to be had.

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The TLDR from this is 'if you manage to hit a good on IQ2+ then the relic is better, for expert recipes'.

Now how many expert recipes are there in Endwalker, since pre-endwalker recipes can just be brute forced via macros.

Is the relic perk actually worth the small niche use that it gets used for?

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

The TLDR from this is 'if you manage to hit a good on IQ2+ then the relic is better, for expert recipes'.

Now how many expert recipes are there in Endwalker, since pre-endwalker recipes can just be brute forced via macros.

Is the relic perk actually worth the small niche use that it gets used for?

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Like I said, crafting macros only work for BiS pentameld where you want to guarantee have HQ quality on production. Which requires a lot of effort to do. So the relic is there to serve as progression catch up gear for many players whom dont bother with going through the effort to have viable macros to work.

And were not getting anymore normal upgrade tools till 7.0 so the relic will quickly be a lot better than the indigator once we get the next step to it.