Tank Stance/Shirk - Get rid of it.

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Originally Posted by Tint

I would rather suggest to remove Shirk instead of the tank stance. Shirk has no purpose anymore, now that Provoke gives additional enmity and tank stance has no damage penalty. There is no need to dump your enmity anymore when you tank swap.

Turning on tank stance at the start of a duty really is not a problem and much less cumbersome than pressing Shirk every few seconds, especially since Shirk needs a target. So annyoing targeting or macro-queue issues.

I really see no benefit here. At all.

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A well geared/skilled tank will quickly pull aggro off a less geared/skilled tank after a provoke. I have joined a few PF groups where I quickly creep back up on the other tank after a swap, and it's easier for me to Shirk them instead of turning off my tank stance and accidentally forgetting to put it back on.

How is hitting this button (Tank Stance) any different than dancer hitting dance partner or summoning Carbuncle or Eos? There's plenty of times that I want to NOT have tank stance on. No one wins if two tanks are fighting for hate. Especially if the tanks aren't standing on top of each other. Boss will keep turning messing up DPS positionals. Healers have to pay more attention to who is tanking, etc. You know awfully quick if your tank stance isn't on and you are the only tank present. Then you learn to turn it on.

For alliance raids, shirk could have been reworked that even without target, it could still perform a similar effect:
- It either just removes the emnity from the tank that used it (which means that the tank that doesnt use it becomes main automaticly.)
- Or it sends the emnity towards the player that already has the highest (maybe after a delay to avoid instantly giving it to a dps - although, if a dps takes it he deserves it, which we could even resolve by only making tanks valid of obtaining this. And also avoiding the issue that the other 2 tanks are still fighting over becoming a maintank, whoever you marked is from that point on simply the tank with more emnity, with a bit extra margin even - unless they are doing provoke wars, but yeah, you cant beat that sort of stupidity)

But it doesnt solve the issue with fates or world encounters, as there you might often want to turn of emnity to avoid random mobs attacking you, while during a fate you actauly want to get this attention. Shirk isnt going to solve things here if in the end you still generate emnity and trigger the random mobs. But most of the time it barely matters anyway as most fates arent realy designed to require a tank (or the chocobo is generaly strong enough enough for them).

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Originally Posted by dspguy

How is hitting this button (Tank Stance) any different than dancer hitting dance partner or summoning Carbuncle or Eos?

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A dancer could need to change the target when the teammate died. Even if the target gets revived later on. You can have several good dps options to mark, and in 4man duties the healer and other dps could have died (no revives) and you can at least still use it on the tank.

For tanks however, there rarely is any reason to turn off emnity generation in any duty. And if its needed, its generaly only for a few seconds to enable the other tank to get a bit ahead (while you are only focussing on staying at least above your teammates). Its significantly less management here.

Think you missed the point there chief.

It's the fact that many jobs, not just tanks, have something to press / prepare when first loading into a duty.

Pressing a single button once you load in is not even remotely difficult and if you mess up, it's not much of a sweat to fix it, and if you wipe, it's no big deal just go again.

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Originally Posted by Covenant

Its about time. There are many reasons, firstly at start of dungeon having activate is annoying. Secondly, there is no longer a need to Tank Stance with Enimity/Def up/Attack down. Thirdly, multi-tank run arent really a thing anymore.

IF you want to bring back Tank Stance to buff/Debuff again, I'll listen.

Enimity Mitigation can be handle with Shirk. Decrease recast time and that's solve the issue.

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Wow, are you really complaining about pressing 1 button?

I wonder if you feel the same about using your defensive CDs as a tank, LOL.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

For alliance raids, shirk could have been reworked that even without target, it could still perform a similar effect:
- It either just removes the emnity from the tank that used it (which means that the tank that doesnt use it becomes main automaticly.)
- Or it sends the emnity towards the player that already has the highest (maybe after a delay to avoid instantly giving it to a dps - although, if a dps takes it he deserves it, which we could even resolve by only making tanks valid of obtaining this. And also avoiding the issue that the other 2 tanks are still fighting over becoming a maintank, whoever you marked is from that point on simply the tank with more emnity, with a bit extra margin even - unless they are doing provoke wars, but yeah, you cant beat that sort of stupidity)

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So... instead of having to click tank stance on... we'd just exchange that for shirking hate by pressing a different button? A button that requires a target? That does not seem like an improvement. Seems like I'm just pushing more buttons.

My only complaint would be it (tank stance) should be a default ON toggle ability, and going into certain dutyfinder activities shouldn't toggle it off, in the same way Eos shouldn't be unsummoned/etc. Its even more confusing when some dutyfinder stuff will reset it but others wont.

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Originally Posted by Steelbreeze

My only complaint would be it (tank stance) should be a default ON toggle ability, and going into certain dutyfinder activities shouldn't toggle it off, in the same way Eos shouldn't be unsummoned/etc. Its even more confusing when some dutyfinder stuff will reset it but others wont.

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When it is reset is completely predictable. If you are synced below your current level, it will be disabled. It is as simple as that.

See I don't understand the issue with removing Shirk. We'd go from 'OT turns on stance, OT vokes, MT Shirks, MT turns off stance' to 'that, but without Shirk step'. The 'better geared tank' isn't going to pull aggro off of the lesser geared one because the less-geared one is in tankstance, Provoke has a massive bonus threat chunk on top of it's x25 or whatever multiplier, and the 'good gear tank' doesn't have stance on in the hypothetical. There's just no reason for Shirk to exist now that tankstances are so powerful in terms of aggro generation. And it'd be one less button on the very bloated PLD hotbars, which would be nice.

Having the tankstance multiplier as a passive effect would be a terrible idea. I caused several wipes in WOW by being too bursty in my opener, and stealing aggro back because the other tank didn't expect to have to keep taunting for the bonus multiplier. Some even accused me of taunting myself, because they refused to believe that my damage was the cause (because accepting it was would imply the other tank was the one who messed up, and we know how egos are in MMOs)

So yeh delete Shirk, keep Tank Stances, reduce Provoke CD

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

See I don't understand the issue with removing Shirk. We'd go from 'OT turns on stance, OT vokes, MT Shirks, MT turns off stance' to 'that, but without Shirk step'. The 'better geared tank' isn't going to pull aggro off of the lesser geared one because the less-geared one is in tankstance, Provoke has a massive bonus threat chunk on top of it's x25 or whatever multiplier, and the 'good gear tank' doesn't have stance on in the hypothetical. There's just no reason for Shirk to exist now that tankstances are so powerful in terms of aggro generation. And it'd be one less button on the very bloated PLD hotbars, which would be nice.

Having the tankstance multiplier as a passive effect would be a terrible idea. I caused several wipes in WOW by being too bursty in my opener, and stealing aggro back because the other tank didn't expect to have to keep taunting for the bonus multiplier. Some even accused me of taunting myself, because they refused to believe that my damage was the cause (because accepting it was would imply the other tank was the one who messed up, and we know how egos are in MMOs)

So yeh delete Shirk, keep Tank Stances, reduce Provoke CD

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I do agree with that. Shirk serves no real purpose. Maybe there is a corner case that I'm not aware of? Shirk requires the "new" OT to hit a button to shed hate. They might not be aware the other tank put on tank stance and hit provoke (they should be, but maybe they aren't). If Shirk was reversed - where it stole someone's hate, I could see it still having a use (maybe?).

However, SE has a track of history of simplifying things. Remember the AOE Provoke that we had as a role ability in a previous expansion? The solution for that was simple - just make stance stance plus a single AOE grab you hate. The enmity bonus from tank stance is just absurd. It also got rid of the need for an AOE provoke.

I've tested this out in various trials/raids. If you are the only tank with tank stance on... do one 1-2-3 rotation on the boss - or just smack it once/twice with Bloodspiler, Inner Chaos, etc. Take off tank stance - you'll hold hate the rest of the way.