90k In Eureka Orthos Should Not Count As KO

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Originally Posted by Frizze

Hell, old-school MMOs mostly featured you losing all your stuff AND some exp(possibly de-leveling in the process) if you died.

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Fair. I was a console player back then, wasn't into western mmos on PC. Yes that's another level of ridiculous. Deep dungeon is just the biggest punishment out of everything I've ever played then and maybe in any modern game. I just wiped on floor 99 with friends last night which I think was about 7 hours wasted from floor 21. We didn't study enough and kind of winged it so we got 1 shot by an AOE that we didn't know ahead of time where to dodge and faltered at the final hurdle, costing us 7 hours and making us start over from scratch next time to reach floor 100.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

Um... no. Ive played plenty of games where your character dying meant starting over from the start. Sometimes losing a character you spent months building up for nothing. Hell, old-school MMOs mostly featured you losing all your stuff AND some exp(possibly de-leveling in the process) if you died. In some of those games you could run back and get your stuff, in others anyone who stumbled by could just take everything off your dead body. This is by no means me saying we should go back to those times or make death worse in this game. Just not to exaggerate how bad this is. It sucks, but its not the worst thing ever.

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LineageII springs immediately to mind...I watched a guild leader lose over 30 levels in a single dungeon siege, and stared mournfully at my new purple shield lying on the ground next to my cold dead body as a griefer circled. luckily my guildmates came to my rescue...that time. I guess no one even remembers actraiser or any of the early games that required you to start over at the very beginning of a level every time you croaked...not saying I liked it: I hated it then, I hate it now, but the design is not something new.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Deep dungeon is just the biggest punishment out of everything I've ever played then and maybe in any modern game.

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The concept of hardcore modes still exists in modern games. And in many of those games the time investment is still a lot bigger (sure, in some games people can boost you, but obtaining the gear is still a time consuming process). Dark souls is still graceful on that end. Sure, its a lot more clear when you are going for such stuff, but its nothing new at all.

And then there is also speedrunning where a single death after 4 hours means you just have to restart. And then there is the part that some speedruns involve RNG (which makes even your disconnect feel more graceful).

Harsh gaming is a genre on its own.

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Originally Posted by UkcsAlias

The concept of hardcore modes still exists in modern games

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To be clear I was talking punishments, not difficulty. Deep dungeons in ffxiv are mostly easy enemies, but the punishment for a failure is ending the entire run which can be up to 200 floors, and making you go back to the very beginning. You're unable to continue that save file from any previous point reached once you're into the premade group floors.

I was also talking about punishments actually programmed into a game, not self imposed punishments and rules by speedrunners. Dark Souls doesn't wipe 10 hours of progress if you make a mistake somewhere.

So if people get what I meant, I don't think it's an exaggeration that deep dungeon has one of the biggest punishments in all of gaming, or at the very least all of modern gaming. Out of everything I've played in recent memory, the second longest no-checkpoints challenge in a game is like 50 minutes long, not 10+ hours.

I've played several games with harsher punishments, the most recent of which is Diablo IV with its hardcore mode. If you die, the character is gone, start over from level 1 with a new character. That can be days, weeks or even months of work gone. I would not call a wipe in deep dungeons overly punishing, just annoying and I would definitely call deep dungeons having one of the biggest punishments in all of gaming a huge exaggeration. An exaggeration bordering on absurd hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by Alien_Gamer

An exaggeration bordering on absurd hyperbole.

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Ok ok I'm wrong then. I'm 37 and have been an obsessive gamer for like 32 years, and played thousands of games in that time. This was by a long, long way the biggest punishment I've ever seen and I didn't expect that to be such an incorrect statement. Apparently I didn't play all these insane games that delete your whole hard drive if you sneeze.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Apparently I didn't play all these insane games that delete your whole hard drive if you sneeze.

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Its a seperate genre. A lot of games with this option also involve more graceful options. And this includes over half of the online pvp survival games (plenty of servers disable damage when players are logged out, or outside of certain hours, or restrict the looting to never be able to take everything, or some servers manualy cover these aspects where admins can just recover the state of a base).

And this genre already existed before diablo, its just that diablo was the first game with a very good and balanced hardcore system that also became popular.

Quote Originally Posted by Rufalus View Post
"Apparently I didn't play all these insane games that delete your whole hard drive if you sneeze."

it's called "permadeath", and it's been with us since the early atari side-shooters right up until now. I mean how many times will you restart at zero before you think "BAH" and go watch TV? here's an article that reports on the newer trends in permadeath games.

they hold no attraction for me, but somebody must like them:

https://www.gamesradar.com/why-perma...e-video-games/

BTW, one designer mentions that the extreme death penalties actually make you get better within the context of the game, and I agree. it's true that I play my FFXIV character better as I repeat EO. deep dungeons seem to be a way to include the aspect of permadeath into a narrative based game with penalties that are restricted to a single aspect: absolute restart with no character death.

The only punishing thing I'm experiencing with Orthos is the 40+ minute waits. And I can't stress the amount of sarcasm I'm about to use right here, It's soooooooooo much fun waiting that long just to have someone cowabunga a dread beast in the middle of 3 mobs.

You can 90k yourself easily by unplugging your modem, so this is not going to change. This is just part of the nature of online gaming, sometimes connection issues will screw you over.


Now if you wanted to propose that an instance should be left open for a limited period of time if its only participant(s) suffer a disconnection, that would be another thing, but my guess is that instances closing if they're empty is the way the game is built for a reason.