What would the path be had you been able to contain the light?

I mean, we did contain the light, right at the end. He even gets a brief glimpse of us as we were. His response is to turn into a giant monster and try to kill us.

Still though, if we had been able to contain it earlier and have a sensible chat about things, I don't think his overall plan would have changed much.
The part of the plan where they kill everyone on the Source after the shards have been rejoined might have been scrapped, but I doubt there is any version of the plan where Emet lets the reflections survive.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

but I doubt there is any version of the plan where Emet lets the reflections survive.

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I mean Emet wants to bring back the ancients, the rejoinings and destruction of the shards are just the only way they have found that could achieve such a result.

Had a way to rejoin the people back into unsundered without the need for the destruction of shards he would take it.

I mean,who wouldn’t want that? Do you realize how much effort and time it takes for them to have a shard be towards a specific element and have the source be near a calamity level that fits said element? Like the amount of time and work to achieve this is ridiculous plus having to wait for the people to repopulate to prepare the next calamity, Emet and the ascians would literally jump at the opportunity to bring back the ancients without having to do all that work.

The shards could survive, the ancients would just recreate their cities in some place, after all the goal is to bring back the ancients, not bring back a specific architecture or structures, these can be remade, the unsundered people cannot.

Considering he also asks us if we ‘remember’ it is clear that he was expecting that after x amount of rejoinings we could reach a level of power only the unsundered were capable of. (Though again zenos with artificial sharingan also reached it)

And had that happened how would he go about it? What does out ability to handle the light prove? Ok we are near unsundered levels powerful? How does that help in bringing back the ancients?

He isn’t stupid, his logic can’t be ‘oh he is equal value/power to me hence a new path will magically appear because of it’

He must have an inkling of an idea of the possibility.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

That was very helpful.

As expected Emet Selch was quite genuine in his belief in us which lead to my question.

Since he said a ‘path of lesser tragedy’ could be found it suggests that he must have at least an inkling of an idea, had the WoL been able to contain the light it would be proof that you can reach near equal status to an unsundered without being fully rejoined. (though we already had that seen when zenos in a weaker body and artificial echo was able to make elidibus run away)

Had this been possible, how could it be used to achieve the ascian goals I wonder, let’s say you can contain the light and prove you are his near equal, that doesnt really reveal a new path, it just shows you are extremely capable and Emet clearly had in mind that if the WoL can contain the light, a common ground can be reached, but what could that common ground be?

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I've said this before, but I think the most critical thing to understand about Emet in Shadowbringers is that he's not behaving rationally. During the expansion, he constantly makes contradictory statements about his own beliefs and even his goals - originally he alludes to the "path of lesser tragedy" being about avoiding the Rejoinings, but by the time you're going to confront Vauthry and it seems as though he might actually have to reckon with being proven wrong, he's trying hard to persuade you they would actually be a good thing and that you and the people you love don't have to suffer for them to happen. He also pivots wildly between how much sympathy he has to the Sundered, sometimes calling them subhuman beings and seeming enraged by the very fact they exist, and at other times regarding them affectionately. It's never explicit outside of the Tales Of stories, but he's obviously wracked with self-loathing as a result of his actions, but also feels compelled out of duty to his people to keep pushing forward. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place - he wants more than anything to stop, but can't bring himself to do so.

I think Emet probably toyed with the idea of trying to work with the people of the Source in the same regard as Varis proposed to bring about further Rejoinings, and even with abandoning the plan altogether... But ultimately, his "test" is more for him than for you. It's a way to resolve the dissonance tormenting him; either his belief in the inferiority of the Sundered is validated and he regains the fortitude to continue with his plans, or his ability to continue with them as they are is compromised because his ability to lie to himself about the Sundered's inferiority is permanently spoiled, and he's 'set free' from his burden.

But in the end, I don't feel Emet would have been capable of fully accepting either of these outcomes, which is why - like Yoshi-P suggests - that even when you do contain the light, he chooses to escalate and stake everything on a final battle where he can die heroically fighting for the people he loves. Because the harsh truth is that there is no 'path of lesser tragedy' where both the Sundered and Unsundered can be wholly saved. It's kill or be killed.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but I think the the plot of ShB ultimately pivots on Emet hitting his breaking point and his subsequent magical thinking more than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Lurina

I've said this before, but I think the most critical thing to understand about Emet in Shadowbringers is that he's not behaving rationally. During the expansion, he constantly makes contradictory statements about his own beliefs and even his goals - originally he alludes to the "path of lesser tragedy" being about avoiding the Rejoinings, but by the time you're going to confront Vauthry and it seems as though he might actually have to reckon with being proven wrong, he's trying hard to persuade you they would actually be a good thing and that you and the people you love don't have to suffer for them to happen. He also pivots wildly between how much sympathy he has to the Sundered, sometimes calling them subhuman beings and seeming enraged by the very fact they exist, and at other times regarding them affectionately. It's never explicit outside of the Tales Of stories, but he's obviously wracked with self-loathing as a result of his actions, but also feels compelled out of duty to his people to keep pushing forward. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place - he wants more than anything to stop, but can't bring himself to do so.

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Yeah, a big thing with Shadowbringers Emet is that while he's often truthful, he's not always honest, and as a result he spends a lot of the expansion subtly twisting his arguments and perspective to do whatever he's trying to achieve in that scene, which is usually just trying to make the Scions question their preconceptions and convictions. This makes it pretty hard to take him at his word with regards to any of his actual plans, a lot of what he said about it was subtly contradictory and lacking in detail... because his goal wasn't consistency or specificity, it was to make you think he had a point.

The Ascians as a whole, and Emet specifically, gain a lot from the fact their plan never faced the scrutiny of actually having to happen on-screen. It's very unclear how much he actually cares about the sundered, if they really think this is a kindness to anyone except their own people, how they deal with the Thirteenth, what even happens after the final Rejoining, how many sacrifices have to happen to make all this finish, if the Amaurot they bring back is really ever the same, if they can ever be trusted to not keep sacrificing... but the Ascians never actually had to answer those questions, because they all died before then, so their plan remains an unquestioned theoretical. That's similarly true of Emet's 'test' to us; it doesn't matter what he would've done if he was wrong and we 'passed' his arbitrary test, because we didn't.

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Yeah, a big thing with Shadowbringers Emet is that while he's often truthful, he's not always honest, and as a result he spends a lot of the expansion subtly twisting his arguments and perspective to do whatever he's trying to achieve in that scene, which is usually just trying to make the Scions question their preconceptions and convictions. This makes it pretty hard to take him at his word with regards to any of his actual plans, a lot of what he said about it was subtly contradictory and lacking in detail... because his goal wasn't consistency or specificity, it was to make you think he had a point.

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I think this is also a little bit of a mischaracterization. Emet constantly says things that jeopardize his attempts to befriend and/or manipulate the Scions, snapping and getting hostile just as they're starting to lower their guard and trust him (relatively), the best example being when he drops the "moral relativity" line. The Scions are still feeling a bit more positive towards him because of his saving Y'shtola, and are the point where they're willing to at least hear him out and entertain empathizing with his motive, but he spoils it and sours the atmosphere to no gain.

He's not some master manipulator, at least not at that point. He's contradictory because he can't control his own emotions and fundamentally has no idea what he even wants.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

I mean Emet wants to bring back the ancients, the rejoinings and destruction of the shards are just the only way they have found that could achieve such a result.

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It would still mean that they murder every shard person for that. After all Ardbert as his own person stops existing after the rejoining. He sometimes still had some thoughts in Shadowbringer but he is a special case. All the other shards that have rejoined with the source soul dont get that.

Also its not just the people. The world and its aether is sundered too. I doubt they would want to live on a sundered planet. Who knows if that planet could even endure them and their creation magic.

And never forget that in the end the Ascians were still tempered.

Yeah the rejoinings at first were probably easy for Emet to deal with and swallow. But the closer the sundered came to looking like an unsundered. At least soul wise I'm sure it became a harder thing to do. He really does want out of his burden, but has struggled to find a way he be "fine" with. He wants to both be proven right that we're unworthy of being handed the baton and that the WoL really isn't as good as their past self. While also wanting to be proven wrong.

He is a grief stricken lonely man who feels as though it's all up to him to see the rejoinings through since Lahabreha went mad and was killed. Then there's Elidibus who chose to slowly lose his memories until he's no more than just a body that's a slave in a way to his duty. Emet by the time we meet him is so done with the rejoinings and wishes they could be sped up. That he could stop being asked to build up nations just to know that they'll be destroyed. With probably a bit of bitterness lingering about a few things. It's why he looks like he's enjoying spending time with us and teaching us stuff. Only to have an emotional outburst and get back into the kill you all mind set. You see it happen with Elidibus as well but that's more of getting mad at not being able to remember and then getting mad at just wanting to remember.

At the end of the day, Emet-Selch and the Ascians DID have a point. Venat robbed them of their right to live, and wasn't as morally pure as she loves to champion herself as. Of course, the Ascians aren't any better so naturally we fight them. I'd like to believe that MY Warrior of Light, as I characterize them would easily do an act that allowed them to save both the Ancients and the Sundered. Even if it means she'd never get to return to her OG timeline. The point is, it isn't fair or right to destroy their civilization just because we personally wouldn't want to live there.

Anyway, as for Emet, I'd say that he never had any plans past that hypothetical, for it was never possible for that to come to pass. It simply wasn't in the cards. I'd also posit that not even an Ancient could conceivably hold all the Light. It's not just Aether, its corruptive aether. Also, have we already forgotten that the first Lightwarden was an Ascian? If we were 9/14ths, I'd say there's a good chance an Unsundered would be equally imperiled by the Light.

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Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai

Anyway, as for Emet, I'd say that he never had any plans past that hypothetical, for it was never possible for that to come to pass. It simply wasn't in the cards. I'd also posit that not even an Ancient could conceivably hold all the Light. It's not just Aether, its corruptive aether. Also, have we already forgotten that the first Lightwarden was an Ascian? If we were 9/14ths, I'd say there's a good chance an Unsundered would be equally imperiled by the Light.

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To be fair, that was an Ascian raised up from one of the sundered. I don't think being restored to office makes your soul any denser.

We do at least know that an unsundered cannot contain the light when it's thrown at them in Axe form though. :p

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Originally Posted by Lurina

He's not some master manipulator, at least not at that point. He's contradictory because he can't control his own emotions and fundamentally has no idea what he even wants.

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He's just an old man, cranky after being woken up too soon from his nap.

Does make me wonder if this is the first time he's been woken up after completing one of his duties, and that's why he's not handling it well at all.