Simple solution for Cover/Hallowed ground cheese

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Originally Posted by GordonGeeko

They should be nowhere close to PVP.

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Then say that, not that they should be jobless.

It's funny how in these threads you still find people fanatically defending the devs and settle for less cause 'muh dev does nothing wrong and muh game is perfect uwu' meanwhile afks in limsa :rolleyes:

I highly doubt their pvp overhaul was tested in frontlines, or if they care about that mode (or people who play pvp for that matter/and anyone in the EN community) but hey you have to understand, small indie company /s

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

I know threads like this exist already, but my two cents to this whole debacle after being cheeses by plds in Onsal for basically every node just now and flames giving up and fighting second place instead of first:

Make attacks interrupt plds through hallowed.
Same for the person they cover.

With this, you can still protect people with cover and hallowed, but it is NOT free objective.

I know pld has 3 consistend counterplays, aka dancer, reaper and warrior.
Dancer range sucks and having to play reaper and or warrior just to counter it sucks, also.

And warrior can't break hallowed ground.

Just because it "has" some sort of counterplay it does not mean it is good counterplay.
Stuns etc. don't go through guard, even if it would, the person they have covered can still cap the objective.

Hence: Interruption.
Get attacked? Interrupted, just as it always worked.

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You had it wrong right at beginning.
The easiest and most effective counter is MNK's enlightenment, it has 10M cast range and 15M knockback distance to break PLD's Guardian line. (Enlightenment knock back effect still active even PLD has Hollwground)
MNK also doesn't need assistance for survival when try to stop PLD guardian

Also, this problem is unique to EU and NA because of lack of communication.
There is no communication within party and everyone just mindless running around.
How are you going to counter a strategy without communication?

I also surprised how you are going to counter this strategy when deliberately ignore the existence of MNK?

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

You had it wrong right at beginning.
The easiest and most effective counter is MNK's enlightenment, it has 10M cast range and 15M knockback distance to break PLD's Guardian line. (Enlightenment knock back effect still active even PLD has Hollwground)
MNK also doesn't need assistance for survival when try to stop PLD guardian

Also, this problem is unique to EU and NA because of lack of communication.
There is no communication within party and everyone just mindless running around.
How are you going to counter a strategy without communication?

I also surprised how you are going to counter this strategy when deliberately ignore the existence of MNK?

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Not many people want to play Monk just to counter PLD, even if told to kill/stun/whatever plds it rarely happens. The frontlines i'm in usually have people say objectives, to disengage, to ignore certain objectives because last place can have them with no problems if not just outright ignored etc. There has not been a single time it was quiet when PLDs started cheesing the Objective, too. People following through is another thing tho.

I forgot that Monk existed tbh, so.... uh, yeah, Monk can also push people around. I forgot, even if I hate when monks do it to me, lmao, Stupid pingpong-cuddles...
There ARE counterplays against it, not that i say there was not.

But while it may push the PLD, the one they cover does not get pushed, right? Not sure how it interacted with that specific push right now.
And it doesn't push through guard either tho, right?

It IS a thing and It IS a problem, plds can literally just wait with HG until after they got lbed, if they are not focused down they will not die after all.
Especially if there's multiple of them, which happened more than once to me, too

Literally the easiest solution to not having one tactic that goes around the whole point of the mode, except you have any of the classes that counter it, which some people may not want to play (dancer range SUCKS and their lb also SUCKS, why do they have to shake so much before it works), is to make the pld in HG and the people they cover, being interrupted when attacked.
Nothing more, i know you can still cc HG-ed Plds, but it still doesn't affect covered people.
It is mostly the issue that the people they cover are immune to pretty much everything, not the pld themself, since cover cheese was always a thing, guard just made it worse.

I have a slightly better solution.

If they're not going to change the kit around remove the ability to regenerate LB outside of combat. That way, if PLDs want to use this strategy they have to participate in fights rather than waiting to be full so that it can be used.

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

I have a slightly better solution.

If they're not going to change the kit around remove the ability to regenerate LB outside of combat. That way, if PLDs want to use this strategy they have to participate in fights rather than waiting to be full so that it can be used.

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The issue isn't the LB. its Cover which is entirely independent of the LB.

I've seen the Onsal cheese a few times, but it's not 100% effective i.e. it's still not enough to carry an entire team that isn't trying to win. Countering premades is simply a whole different beast. That SCH squad from Zalera were able to DoT everyone to death because they had better support.

On a more surprising note, it seems PLDs are also cheesing Fields of Glory now. We encountered a four-man premade (only two from Zalera though) that, instead of going after ice, would just hang around an enemy base and combine the absurd mitigation from Phalanx and Guard with Guardian and Elixirs to heal, to the point where ~10 distracted people couldn't deal enough damage to burn one of them down. After a couple losses, I just switched to SAM and Zan'd one of them, but they managed to lose that match anyway. Probably because the matchmaking RNG wasn't in their favor that time.

With that said, they do still need to consider changing Guardian so it doesn't prevent interruptions. The fact that PVP Cover is so great while the PVE version isn't is bizarre.

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

I've seen the Onsal cheese a few times, but it's not 100% effective i.e. it's still not enough to carry an entire team that isn't trying to win. Countering premades is simply a whole different beast. That SCH squad from Zalera were able to DoT everyone to death because they had better support.

On a more surprising note, it seems PLDs are also cheesing Fields of Glory now. We encountered a four-man premade (only two from Zalera though) that, instead of going after ice, would just hang around an enemy base and combine the absurd mitigation from Phalanx and Guard with Guardian and Elixirs to heal, to the point where ~10 distracted people couldn't deal enough damage to burn one of them down. After a couple losses, I just switched to SAM and Zan'd one of them, but they managed to lose that match anyway. Probably because the matchmaking RNG wasn't in their favor that time.

With that said, they do still need to consider changing Guardian so it doesn't prevent interruptions. The fact that PVP Cover is so great while the PVE version isn't is bizarre.

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Counterable - yes
Should it be part of the actual strategy of Frontlines? No, obviously not!
And i KNOW they want to change but yes, the EASIEST change is to make people be interruptable while they are covered.

Premades obviously always play better than some randoms and I know how dangerous sch can be, but at least they can't go invincible.

But i agree, why is pve cover so weirdly bad and pvp cover so good? Well it IS mostly because of guard, but still...

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Originally Posted by Lorentz

The issue isn't the LB. its Cover which is entirely independent of the LB.

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My apologies. I'm overthinking things.

If you want to kill the strategy as well as potting in the middle of the crowd reduce the duration of Guardian (Cover) to 5 seconds.
Potting takes 5 secs.
I'm quite certain that taking objectives takes 5 secs.
Think about it for a minute

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Originally Posted by Mistress_Irika

My apologies. I'm overthinking things.

If you want to kill the strategy as well as potting in the middle of the crowd reduce the duration of Guardian (Cover) to 5 seconds.
Potting takes 5 secs.
I'm quite certain that taking objectives takes 5 secs.
Think about it for a minute

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No need if the covered person is interruptable, guarding Pld attached to the cover or not.

You do NOT actually need to nerf Cover. Then they have to fight just as much as we do, would also balance the "in your face potting" a bit but tbh, i do not think THAT is a problem.
It is JUST capping interrupting, i just don't know if they could do that without breaking the potting