This is just straight up false and it makes your entire point that the WoL was complicit in the ancients' demise fall apart. By the time of us meeting the gang in elpis, the meteion sisters had already visited all their planets. They had already soaked up enough despair to corrupt the network completely. With their inability to manipulate dynamis they would have had a far worse chance than us at succeeding against the endsinger in her domain. Y'all need to pay more attention to what's going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by SentioftheHoukai
Venat's dicision was a cruel one but faced with absolute annihilation even dark paths seem easy to take.
The Ancients still deserved better, after everything
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05-31-2022, 08:49 PMSaraide
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05-31-2022, 08:56 PMjameseoakesMy issue with this is that the the game fails to to set up that the ancients couldn't have dealt with Endsinger once they were able to turn there attention to the issue. Also if Venat complete scours all of there culture and legacy from existence which is vile act.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
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05-31-2022, 09:01 PMredheadturkYeah no. The issue with your take is Venat knew, she had the relevant information that could have allowed her people to combat Meteion's little tantrum. She refused to share it and instead unilaterally made the decision that "Mommy knows best" instead of sharing it with them so they could come up with a solution on their own. And I have full faith they *could* have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
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05-31-2022, 09:18 PMTheodric
The attempted justification of the genocide inflicted upon the Ancients is most certainly this game's 'Burning of Teldrassil' moment. I'm not convinced that the game's story will ever be able to come back from that, since much like how World of Warcraft decided to compromise so many characters and organisations within its story in order to prop up Sylvanas, FFXIV takes a similarly contrived route to do the same thing with Venat. The only difference is that unlike with Sylvanas, Venat was actually killed off. I suppose it remains to be seen as to whether or not that sticks given the game's habit of just casually bringing back dead characters on a whim.
The strange glorification of 'suffering' is also pretty bizarre. Especially when the protagonists are clad in such heavy plot armour that they never go through even ten percent of what the antagonists are forced to endure. -
05-31-2022, 09:19 PMLaurontFor 12k years she could not put a scratch on a sundered Zodiark... 8 sundered and the scions defeat her... she doesn't seem to have been all she was cracked up to be, tbh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
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05-31-2022, 09:30 PMCatwho
There seems to be a gap in the storytelling. I got the impression that Venat did work with the Council of 14 and did her best to convince them that summoning a blood god was probably not the smartest course of action, but she's fighting against the egos and naive worldviews of people like Hermes and Emet-Selch, who also think they know best.
She even said that she wanted Hermes on the Council in the role of Fandanial, because she felt that having "the best minds" approach the problem might find other solutions.
For a people whose every solution has been "fix it with creation magic" to have that suddenly not be an option was incomprehensible to them. They couldn't let it go. Plan 1A was summon a god so powerful it would stop Meteion, even if it cost them half their souls. Plan 1B was to have a bunch of children, and then sacrifice them, to bring back the first batch of lost souls. Neither facet of that plan solved the real problem, which was stopping something that couldn't be stopped with creation magic.
Were there likely some outside of the box solutions that the Council should have explored? Yes. But that would entail them believing crazy old Venat's story: that a time traveler from the future came and told them that their world was going to be destroyed by a non-aetherial based creation.
Who would believe her? -
05-31-2022, 09:37 PMLarirawielYes. But Zodiark was a primal. He needed an external aether source to exist. So the ancients would have to sacrifice living beeings permanently to feed him. And since he tempered the Convocation of 14, they would not have any problems to sacrifice other life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
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05-31-2022, 09:46 PMLaurontI do find it rather ironic that you're referring to a gap in storytelling, when I think this relates more to a gap in comprehension. Her entire plan requires Zodiark. Her faction was reliant on keeping him around to shield the star. She emphatically says she won't be able to lean directly on the Convocation in this case, and there is zero indication she told them the truth of the matter, i.e. about a goth bird waifu created by Hermes absorbing vast quantities of planetary despair and vomiting it back onto the universe. Not even her own creation, the Watcher, is privy to the ultimate cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwho
Sorry but what are you even talking about at this point? Can you provide any sources to back this up? Zodiark was intended to correct a weakening in the aetherial currents. They did not know the true cause of the apocalypse, because Venat never told them. Point 1B may as well be headcanon - see here.Quote:
Plan 1A was summon a god so powerful it would stop Meteion, even if it cost them half their souls. Plan 1B was to have a bunch of children, and then sacrifice them, to bring back the first batch of lost souls.
Did she even try convince them? Make use of the Echo? Approach Hyth and Emet to explain what had happened to them? Etc. No, she basically rules this approach out because she wouldn't want to alienate Hermes according to her reasoning. But she had plenty of tools at her disposal. She was a highly revered member of her society, even if they saw her as eccentric - see here:Quote:
Were there likely some outside of the box solutions that the Council should have explored? Yes. But that would entail them believing crazy old Venat's story: that a time traveler from the future came and told them that their world was going to be destroyed by a non-aetherial based creation.
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Emet-Selch: Then again, even with you slowing her down, there is no denying that Venat is an accomplished researcher. Her wealth of wisdom and experience is unmatched, and her achievements in creation magicks─in any field, frankly─are nothing short of extraordinary.
Emet-Selch: Though the singular brilliance which sets her apart can make her motives somewhat impenetrable at times...
Emet-Selch: As her student and successor puts it, she is a force of nature, at once so close...and at the same time, so very distant.
Not sure what this has to do with anything? Hydaelyn's entire plan relies on him. She too is a primal. There is nothing indicating either drain the star of aether like regular primals do. If you want to provide actual sources for this, including that their tempering would actually sway them to sacrifices (when the FR version indicates the Convocation was divided on this in Elidibus's SoS dialogue), I'll be happy to entertain this, but I am not in the habit of just accepting headcanon as fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Larirawiel
They were capable of creating workarounds, like entelechies. At a bare minimum, selective sundering of their kind could create life forms capable of influencing this, without sundering their entire star and people. Like I said, a small quantity of sundered sufficed. And this is not considering what other manner of solutions they could devise over 12k years, with knowledge of the actual cause behind this. Sorry if I don't find this point particularly compelling.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saraide
12k years later and the shield was still holding. Plenty of time for the ancients to devise workarounds and solutions.Quote:
Given more time her ever increasing song of oblivion would have broken through zodiark's shroud..
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05-31-2022, 09:47 PMAbsimiliardWhere did this come from? They were planning to sacrifice the new (notably mostly non-sapient) life Zodiark seeded the world with, not their own children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Catwho
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05-31-2022, 09:47 PMSaraideWe had the ability to influence dynamis, something the ancients were literally incapable of. Their vaste amounts of aether would not have helped them in the vortex of pure dynamis. Meteion is by design exceptionally slippery, you'll only manage to defeat the endsinger if you manage to break the despair that infests the sister network. Meteion had no reason to hurry, she could instigate mankind's demise as slow as she needed to while hiding in her stronghold. Given more time her ever increasing song of oblivion would have broken through zodiark's shroud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauront
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Originally Posted by redheadturk
I think the game does set that up. Given the knowledge there is no reason to assume hermes wouldnt just side with meteion again and with the loyalty of the best mind they have on dynamis most likely against them while also not being able to directly influence it, it would have spelled disaster. Venat only had one shot, she had to decide which one to pursue then and there. It absolutely was a vile act, she recognizes that. She did it out of desperation to end the spiraling despair that took hold of the ancients' society.Quote:
Originally Posted by jameseoakes