6.1 Samurai: the Kaiten removal was the right choice but it's not enough

Another troll or a person that can't 1+1 together. Ofc kenki is useless, since they removed kaiten, not because kaiten was bad ability.

You are right that Kaiten is just a button that you WANT to press before every Iaijutsu / Ogi Namikiri (so that's 2 skill, not just 1 like you said). Heck you can even press it before most of your weaponskills to empower it, the only thing that prevents you from doing it is because 'it's a DPS loss'. That spawns another question: if there's only one true optimal combo that gives you the most DPS in a job, and now we know that their goal is to simplify things by removing Kaiten, why don't we get rid all the combo buttons and combine it into one button? Hakaze Jinpu Shifu Kasha Gekko Yukikaze, into a button called 'Slashy Slash'. Of course I don't want that to happen, please devs this is just a joke jeez.

I'll try to give you an example from other game. I played Ragnarok Online, and there's a class called 'Monk/Champion'. Every time you want to do your big peepee damage/finisher you have to do this sequence: Soul Collect -> Explosion -> Soul Collect -> then Asura (and yes with cast time, just like SAM). That's 3 buttons prior to Asura did next to nothing in terms of damage, I'm not gonna delve too deep into their mechanics but the idea is it's still one of the favorite jobs by far, both for PvP and Boss killing. You know why? Because it's so damn good when you're able to do the sequence right and see 6-7 digit number flies on top of your enemy.

Pressing Kaiten every Iai/Ogi is not hard at all, though playing on controller and doing the mechanics for a fight I don't get yet I'd still use it incorrectly every now and then. But I never had any problems before, and I was actually having fun.

To OP I'll ask you this: do you ever said to yourself, after a fight, 'Man Kaiten sucks'? If the answer is 'no', then why do they fix something that's not broken instead of actually doing their job and making the game more fun? 4 months is a long time, they can come up with something better, and it's not like someone is overworking them at a gunpoint (or maybe?). I don't even mind if I don't see any change to SAM; it was perfect the way they were.

The fact that kaiten was used before all of your big hitters exactly why removing it is so problematic. It was baked into the feel and flavor of the job at a fundamental level, you can't just remove a button someone is pushing all the time and expect it to go well. The job fantasy of being a Samurai is that of being a skilled swordsman, kaiten fit the bill aesthetically because it made you feel like you were preparing for a big attack that required skill and concentration for your character to execute.

The emotional and aesthetic argument for keeping kaiten is incredibly relevant because the feel of playing one job is what makes them well - feel - different in the first place. Otherwise why does it even matter what job you play? Just pick one at random and homerow mash.

Or to put it another way, continuation is just a button I always have to push after my gnashing fang combo and burst strikes. Wouldn't it be better to just adjust GNB potencies and remove continuation in order to reduce button bloat? Looking at Sam from the outside, this is what this change looks like.

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Originally Posted by Stasya

Another troll or a person that can't 1+1 together. Ofc kenki is useless, since they removed kaiten, not because kaiten was bad ability.

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I'm not a troll and I don't think you need to insult me because I don't have the same opinion as you do. IMO if the main spender of a resource reveals itself to be unnecessary, the resource itself becomes unnecessary. You don't think so? That's not a problem to me. A lot of people, the majority, is "on your side", so I'm pretty confident that in the end the change will be reverted.

This is just a different opinion on the matter and a reflection about the general state of SAM

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

The Kaiten removal was the right choice but it's not enough

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I mean... everyone can have opinions but my god... I am really lost with this one...

As far as I can tell...from reading your post...
- You enjoy utmost simplicity
- You want to deal high damage
- You want to be unhindered to dash without resource
- You want to not need to manage Kenki resource
- You want to indirectly/directly remove Action and Button bloat
- You want to not need to weave anything
- And this is without any sight of anything to replace what we lost
- And all of it to also then be rewarded high damage numbers?

So you want not the cake, not the icing, the entire bakery shop for 1 penny...

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

If you use something every single time before a specific skill, it's better to just remove it

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By your logic... " Every buff from every class that needs to be cast before another skill regardless of class is pointless "... Do you want everything to be potency? or a passive? do you realize how boring and bland that is... from a Players perspective?

And what we find enjoying, skillful expression to time, and to manage with resource for our big damage... and I guess unique to us in a sense, animation and all, you want that gone and just given to you on a silver platter?

The only way Kaiten removal makes sense? if it is removed and replaced with something which atm it is not. I at least enjoy the part of it where we have to press buttons and think and weave our skills to obtain that damage output. In fact i am more in love with the execution of the rotation then a big number. But, to have all of it given to you for nothing? makes zero sense to me nor does it sound enjoyable... its soulless

I am genuinely questioning if we even play the same game or class, no offense

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

That makes perfectly sense, I'm not a game designer, I have no defense on that. But why would the devs - seasoned game designers - think to remove the skill in the first place in your opinion?

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According to them, action bloat or button bloat or something? Whatever their reason, the solution was horrid - obviously not made by someone who actually cares about the job, seeing as they didn't bother to think about it enough to realize that there were multiple, obvious, less destructive, better options for pruning.

Pacing is important in game design, as is psychology, and Kaiten influenced both - the skill itself didn't do any damage, but you knew it was going to make your next hit monstrous, heightening the sense of anticipation for your Iaijutsu. The animation was satisfying. The audio was satisfying. Play enough samurai and the anim and/or audio might even act as conditioning triggers since the big payoff from Iaijutsu always follows. Kaiten also guaranteed that when playing optimally, you always wove an OGCD right before Iaijutsu, which makes the cast time on Iaijutsu more pronounced since you can't weave while casting, then as soon as Iaijutsu goes off you follow with another attack since the GCD was rolling during the cast time, so a nice, if not incredible burst of damage between the 2 attacks to pay off the anticipation. You'll hear terms like "intensity curve" thrown around a lot in design discussions, and the flatter it is, the worse - you want strong peaks, which often means intentional valleys - Kaiten served multiple purposes from a design perspective in terms of player engagement by guaranteeing a more interesting RDM-style double-action, pause, double-action cadence for each Iaijutsu use while also accentuating the lull of Iaijutsu's cast bar and increasing anticipation actively.

Without Kaiten being used before every Iaijutsu, you lose the guaranteed RDM cadance for Iaijutsu, which makes using it more "normal" and stand out less in your rotation.
Without Kaiten you no longer have satisfying animation/audio to herald an incoming Iaijutsu to bolster anticipation.
Without Kaiten you can now weave Shinten right before Iaijutsu, reducing the valley before the peak, which effectively reduces the peak since its impact is relative to the valley before it.
Without Kaiten your kenki gauge is completely independent from your stickers - kenki can now be used whenever you like - it has no bearing on your rotation and is no longer truly part of it - it's purely filler.

There's more to be said but I hope this makes sense - there's a lot more to what an ability actually does than "what does it do?".

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

The point I try to make with this post is that if we take a closer look to Kaiten from a game design perspective, apart from emotional attachment and habits, (IMHO) is clear that it's an unnecessary skill. And when I realized that the main Kenki spender in the rotation is an unnecessary skill, I started to question the whole Kenki system. That's why I suggest that Kaiten is a symptom from a different disease, and why in my opinion bringing back Kaiten won't solve the problem.

Again, I'm well aware that a lot of players don't see this as a problem, but I think the job might get better if the removal of Kaiten was just the first step in a bigger SAM resource rework.

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I understand your point, but "unnecessary" is an objective point of view. It's the same as if I were to say that every oGCD in the game is unnecessary. It's an objective viewpoint because I can make a case that any benefit they bring can be baked into GCD skills, and they just give you something to press in between them. While this is true, and the game would function just fine this way; it would slow down combat, and sluggishly so. It would drastically impact how the game would feel. Removing Kaiten does exactly the same thing to SAM, just on a smaller scale; but it indeed was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Now, if they did revert the change, it would not change the other issues SAM has that you and other posters have brought up. The bigger problem with this when I zoom out, is that simply reverting SAM to 6.0, or even around 5.5 also won't fix SAM. Players have now gotten used to the two charges for Meikyo and Tsubame, and taking those away will bust rotations once again. Seigan can't return in its previous form as it will add back a button. And that's not even going into potencies. As I said in another thread, SAM has a very long road ahead of it now, and calls for an entire rework are likely inevitable as well.

I respectfully disagree. I love Kaiten. Bring it back

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Originally Posted by CelestiCer

As far as I can tell...from reading your post...
- You enjoy utmost simplicity
- You want to deal high damage
- You want to be unhindered to dash without resource
- You want to not need to manage Kenki resource
- You want to indirectly/directly remove Action and Button bloat
- You want to not need to weave anything
- And this is without any sight of anything to replace what we lost
- And all of it to also then be rewarded high damage

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As I was well aware i was posting an unpopular opinion, I really don’t get why everyone extends what I might want/not want far beyond what it’s stated in the thread.

I think Kaiten was a good flavour skill - but still a flavour skill - and Kenki might be a problem in SAM’s job design. IDK at the moment how they should be replaced: with OGCDs? with a different resource? I think the job - as a pure DPS jobs designed around big numbers and melee casts, could be tailored around something better than Kenki, small hit spams and a buff button. Maybe something that is even more intensive than Kenki or Kaiten.

I strongly suggest you to read the Homogenization thread in my history: at that time I was strongly attacked (it’s a big topic) for defending class identity, nuances, “useless skills”, things which to me are extremely important in MMO.

You say I think “every buff that i needed to be cast is pointless” - you write that in bold - while I never said that. I think for example that Swiftcast is great design. Healers single skill buffs are good design. I think Sharpcast is meh. I think the DRG 6.1 merge was good. I think every situation, every skill and very job are different and require a different analysis

To me Kaiten was unnecessary and Kenki exposed itself as a mediocre resource with underwhelming spenders, nothing more and nothing less than that.

While I do agree to a certain extent that kaiten is a flavor skill, that doesn't mean that it is a bad thing. If having flavor skills is bad what is the point of having cast times on iaijutsu and ogi namakiri if it isn't to give the player the feeling of putting out a strong and impactful attack. Its in a way similar to the the wind up that the long sword in monters hunter has for when they want to use their foresight slash (a move that does more damage when the player is hit). That feeling of preparing for a strong attack is the asthetic the player strives for to master thier weapon/class.

I also don't think you give enough credit to kaiten for being in the burst combo. Having semi-fast apm helped in making burst combos feel like there are a well practiced move that the player can master similar to how a swordsman would practice their swings in real life. Now without keiten it just feels like the player haphazardly swings the sword to make sure the gauge didn't fill.

Kaiten also gave the player at least something to think about in their rotation. Like you said without kaiten the kenki gauge might as well just be a cooldown for shinten. Going back to the monter hunter example something they could do without increasing button bloat would be to change third eye a bit. This is basically seigan without an extra button but if they made third eye cost 5-10 kenki and give back 15-20 (maybe more) kenki back for a succeful counter this could help make the gauge feel for impactful and interactive by making sure the player has kenki ready for a counter attack. Hell you could go to the extreme end and make third eye cost 50 kenki in grant a full bar of kenki for a successful counter.