How can Venat be the previous Azem?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuroka

But thats exaclty why i dislike it a lot... it paints venat in a way too good light, adds drama... she wasnt alone for the most part - and as we literally saw on zodiark she should not be alone at all as the souls of her followers should be well inside her primal form.

It paints the others as maniacs that would kill everyone and themselfs only to restore the old glory, while in fact the plan was to take a part of the ne life to restore the souls in zodiark. While not ok, its still a bitter taste to show em like that...

---

How does it paint her in a good light? She was simply gambling, she had no idea if her plan would even work, its the entire reason she comes up with the escape plan in case it all goes south and the sundering didn't make us capable enough. Do we need to see her more with her followers? Is that really important? I don't think so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuroka

But thats exaclty why i dislike it a lot... it paints venat in a way too good light, adds drama... she wasnt alone for the most part - and as we literally saw on zodiark she should not be alone at all as the souls of her followers should be well inside her primal form.

It paints the others as maniacs that would kill everyone and themselfs only to restore the old glory, while in fact the plan was to take a part of the ne life to restore the souls in zodiark. While not ok, its still a bitter taste to show em like that...

---

Well, whether or not you like the cutscene is irrelevant to the fact that the cutscene is supposed to be a metaphor/abstraction of the events, and not a literal depiction of the chronological events.

Also the cutscenes weren’t showing the other Ancients as wanting to sacrifice everything for the restoration of their “paradise”, the amount being sacrificed is never specified in the cutscene at all. The main point of that part of the cutscenes was to emphasize that the plan/mentality to sacrifice future lives for past lives was unacceptable.
In other words sacrificing the “future” for the “past” was the key point, which Emet-Selch basically reiterates (of why they fought and why he lost) right before he and Hythlodaeus return to the Lifestream/Aetherial Sea after the Scions were restored during the climax of Endwalker.

The "Universal Aether Farm for Zodiark" plan is actually a bit contentious with what we learned in Endwalker. The scene showing the Sundering, even if not taken literally, shows Venat doing so to stop her fellows from committing suicide in Zodiark's name, not declaring their intent to cultivate life to sacrifice. They had given up on the future and only sought solace in the "perfect paradise" of the past, regardless of the price that had to be paid to achieve that.

"But the past we loved is not the future you seek. That is why we fought. And why I lost." So sayeth Emet-Selch, even if he refuses to compromise his ideals.

Anyway, in regards to Hydaelyn, well... there were fewer souls making her up, and she still had her original "heart" (e.g. Venat). Zodiark has many souls within him but without a guiding will he's just a creature of instinct, which is why Danny Boy hijacks him to fight us.

In response to OP's question... the seat of Azem existed long before the Final Days. Venat was the previous Azem and "our" Azem's mentor, who left the seat but did not return to the star (or less euphemistically, commit ritual suicide) until we defeated her as Hydaelyn deep within the Aetherial Sea. "Our" Azem rejected the proposition to summon Zodiark and defected from the Convocation. (Neither did they accept summoning Hydaelyn, though that's a bit of a digression.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sidurgu-12

plus emet and hythol arguing while a man gets eaten.

---

That's definitely fishy for Hythlodaeus, but I can see Emet doing exactly that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cleretic

That's definitely fishy for Hythlodaeus, but I can see Emet doing exactly that.

---

he'll just snark about how the guys getting eaten too loudly and tell the monster to chew with his mouth closed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cilia

The "Universal Aether Farm for Zodiark" plan is actually a bit contentious with what we learned in Endwalker. The scene showing the Sundering, even if not taken literally, shows Venat doing so to stop her fellows from committing suicide in Zodiark's name, not declaring their intent to cultivate life to sacrifice. They had given up on the future and only sought solace in the "perfect paradise" of the past, regardless of the price that had to be paid to achieve that.

"But the past we loved is not the future you seek. That is why we fought. And why I lost." So sayeth Emet-Selch, even if he refuses to compromise his ideals.

---

I think the first part of this untrue. It was the sacrifice of others to bring back those who had summoned and empowered Zodiark that she halted. We know from Anyder, and the cutscene itself that Hydaelyn was brought forth to restrain Zodiark after the second sacrifice, which involved the Ancients sacrificing themselves. As she says:

Quote:

---

Venat: So please, open your eyes. To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn’t wisdom. It is weakness.

---

And when describing Zodiarks initial summoning, Venat uses “we” to describe how they had halted, and the pain they suffered afterward. It’s only when she begins to talk of the efforts to restore the star to “the perfect paradise” it supposedly was, that she stops doing so. If the issue was self sacrifice, this wouldn’t make sense. This interpretation, I think, makes more sense.

I agree with the rest of your post however.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuroka

No the seat of Azem was always there, that is confirmed with the side stories.... at those were pre soundering.

They always were 14 - Venat retires and our old self takes the seat for some time, dealing with emet and the others too, as said in the side story - the final days hit - "we" go ??? and dont side with either side and leave, letting our seat empty - they summon Zodiark - Venat gathers followers (maybe already before that) and at a later point she becomes hydaelyn and splits the world.

---

Speaking of Azem going MIA without siding with anyone, I feel this plot is going to be important if not THE source of Season 2 events and Season 2 Antagonists.

The whole Azem going MIA and being a big mystery during events of Hydaelyn/Zodiark struggle even before the Final Days is rather strange and suspicious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Speaking of Azem going MIA without siding with anyone, I feel this plot is going to be important if not THE source of Season 2 events and Season 2 Antagonists.

The whole Azem going MIA and being a big mystery during events of Hydaelyn/Zodiark struggle even before the Final Days is rather strange and suspicious.

---

I'm guessing Azem knew of the Final Days before it happened as well. Venat probably told them. It would explain how he/she knew that we'd be coming to help Elidibus with Pandaemonium.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Speaking of Azem going MIA without siding with anyone, I feel this plot is going to be important if not THE source of Season 2 events and Season 2 Antagonists.

The whole Azem going MIA and being a big mystery during events of Hydaelyn/Zodiark struggle even before the Final Days is rather strange and suspicious.

---

There's also the fact that we have missing pieces of the puzzle here that may have to do with Azem. We have not dealt with the "roar from within the earth" that caused the transformations into Terminus back in the pre-Sundering days...a sound that was confirmed to be heard at Radz-at-Han when the transformations began. I have a feeling that's going to deal with our next big journey, and possibly with what Azem was doing. Zodiark dealt with the imbalance of aether, Hydaelyn sealed him to prevent more sacrifices and so the imbalance wouldn't return...so what caused the original imbalance, where did it come from?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

We have not dealt with the "roar from within the earth" that caused the transformations into Terminus back in the pre-Sundering days...a sound that was confirmed to be heard at Radz-at-Han when the transformations began.

---

That depends whether the writers intend for it to be a separate phenomenon or a strange effect of Meteion's call.

The primary mystery with Azem right now is how they knew to tell Themis to expect us.

That may get entirely resolved within the raid story, and all plotlines regarding the ancients wrapped up within this patch cycle, but we'll have to wait and see.