Flame Sergeant's Spear VS Ifrit's Harpoon

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

did you test with or without sanction

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It was a fast test with sanction on, i only wanted to see how good is a weapon with low delay and low dmg base but with good dps.

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Originally Posted by Umisame

It was a fast test with sanction on, i only wanted to see how good is a weapon with low delay and low dmg base but with good dps.

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i have flame patas but i hanvt tested them yet, i know they are much better with sanction on and im thinking with +1 damage they may still out perform ifrit with no sanction.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Has anyone, I haven't looked around, tested for not only weapon dmg being a factor in stat caps, but weapon rank. It stands to reason that if all Ifrit weapons are R50 they'd all cap at the same value, which also means that Garuda/GC/Crafted all would have the same stat caps. It makes sense too then that a R10 weapon would be capped w/o gear, and that 5 different R50 spears w/ differing dmg(base and dps) values would have the same stat caps but offer different dmg on WSs. WRank is a means to ensure that people continue to upgrade weapons, in ffxi wrank was based on the base dmg (dmg/10 + 1 iirc) of a weapon and had a significant impact.

I doubt that SE changed the way dmg is being calculated and didn't mention it at all. They've been surprisingly forthright for the last year or so about every change they've made, I don't see them changing that now, not with something that would have the kind of impact on things that revamped dmg equations would have.

Edit: If it was wrank from FFXI used as a model, then we've all been looking at PLD skewed, it's relatively low weapon dmg values would translate into reduced stat caps making it easier to spread your stats out while still hitting caps ...

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"If you parse on an Ifrit's Axe versus a Mog Axe you will find that the stats cap 3-5 points lower."

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Originally Posted by Silvano

"If you parse on an Ifrit's Axe versus a Mog Axe you will find that the stats cap 3-5 points lower."

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I assume that means you tested by adding to each stat individually on each weapon, and it that's the case then the wrank from XI would be your basis for stat caps not optimal level. Again wrank = 1+wdmg/10. I was really just wondering if anyone had tested this or if al that had been tested for was dmg output based on wdmg and not wlvl.
Mostly so that when I go trying to be the best I can be with what I have time to get I won't end up wasting time going after things that won't actually help.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

I assume that means you tested by adding to each stat individually on each weapon, and it that's the case then the wrank from XI would be your basis for stat caps not optimal level. Again wrank = 1+wdmg/10. I was really just wondering if anyone had tested this or if al that had been tested for was dmg output based on wdmg and not wlvl.
Mostly so that when I go trying to be the best I can be with what I have time to get I won't end up wasting time going after things that won't actually help.

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I only put that part of my quote again because it sounded like (based on your response) you didn't see it. Seiken, to find the stat caps, did ~3000 trials, so I'm assuming all of his tests are as thorough.

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Originally Posted by Silvano

I only put that part of my quote again because it sounded like (based on your response) you didn't see it. Seiken, to find the stat caps, did ~3000 trials, so I'm assuming all of his tests are as thorough.

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And plenty of others are that thourough, but alot of them are still human and do over look things, or don't consider every possible situation, McDonald's never tested to see if someone could spill burning hot coffee on themselves and sue, and win the case. Stupid comarison yes, but it speaks to the point of no one hits everything every time out. You also "assume" so the question isn't actually answered. I've googled for it as well as searched these forums, all I ever see is magic number 350 or 310 and only tested based on wdmg never across a weapon of every level for effect.
In no way am I saying that the tests aren't valid or that they aren't good, they absolutely are. I'm just saying that I haven't seen wlvl testing to counter wdmg(wrank) and I haven't seen anyone look at the possibity of it being wrank which would explain why a weapon w/ 150 has a marked increase over one w/ 149 and give a basis for a simple equation by which to assess your stat needs instead of this current 350 and 310 mark that only shows that with the highest level highest damage weapons in the game they all cap AROUND here, but no why/how.

Seiken doesn't even count trials when he tests. We use a different method of data collection for MIN and MAX. Most other testers just find some arbitrary trial # and use the average. We only document the MIN and the MAX until:

(MAX - ((MAX+MIN)/2)) / ((MAX+MIN)/2) = 7.8% or greater

Because this gives the true average via calculation. The number of trials to achieve this true min/max depends on how high a damage you're dealing and luck. Could take 2 trials, could take 1000. The point is we're finding the true average instead of leaving it up to chance.

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

Seiken doesn't even count trials when he tests. We use a different method of data collection for MIN and MAX. Most other testers just find some arbitrary trial # and use the average. We only document the MIN and the MAX until:

(MAX - ((MAX+MIN)/2)) / ((MAX+MIN)/2) = 7.8% or greater

Because this gives the true average via calculation. The number of trials to achieve this true min/max depends on how high a damage you're dealing and luck. Could take 2 trials, could take 1000. The point is we're finding the true average instead of leaving it up to chance.

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I realize that, and read most of the data and everything, I'm not now nor have I ever questioned whether your tests were thorough from the size of your samples, I asked if you used weapons of varying dmg from each level, and varying level for each dmg range? Which is to ask: Did you use 5 lvl 1 swords each with a different dmg value, and then repeat with lvl 10 swords, and so on through lvl50 swords, then repeat that only using dmg 10 swords from levels 1~10 while min/maxing every stat on each individual weapon.

I completely understand that you've found what for now are about as close as humanly possible caps w/o having SE offer up a white paper that outlines their exact equations, or someone reverse engineering the game to rip them straight out of the code.

What I didn't notice was a final formula for stat_cap = wdmg?wlvl?plvl?wdelay(even if we all assume it's not a factor per hit)?
Some day there'll be a level increase, or weapons that break previous rules, a final, useful, functional equation that takes into account all these factors and isn't just a final result of massive test samples to see where it stopped getting better was what I was wondering about.

I'm not knocking your methods, and for what it's worth I gear based on them when/where I can. Formulas that take it all into account would be incredibly helpful moving into the future, post 2.0 when leveling slows so there's some point in gearing for level ranges for instance. Extrapolating other stat_cap formulas from your original work, the possibilities are endless really. Well kind of endless and for some people it would be great for the sake of dressing out to maximize our potential w/o destroying our wallets.

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Originally Posted by Kaeko

Seiken doesn't even count trials when he tests. We use a different method of data collection for MIN and MAX. Most other testers just find some arbitrary trial # and use the average. We only document the MIN and the MAX until:

(MAX - ((MAX+MIN)/2)) / ((MAX+MIN)/2) = 7.8% or greater

Because this gives the true average via calculation. The number of trials to achieve this true min/max depends on how high a damage you're dealing and luck. Could take 2 trials, could take 1000. The point is we're finding the true average instead of leaving it up to chance.

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That's nifty o.o what does that calculate precisely? I am probably reading your sentences mentally incorrect and it's written in my face, sorry ; ;

I tried this on mobs using Garuda bow compared to Ifrit bow. My WS's were doing more dmg with Garuda bow but light shots were doing less. But Light shot delay was 1 second less with Garuda so I could get more light shots off on average each fight. I think the dps has something to do with WS damage as the main damage number for the weapon is about 30 less on Garuda bow than Ifrit bow.