With some Jobs play style completely changed, isn't it time for alternate job specs?

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Originally Posted by Oshirigami

But... Summoner wasn't an unpopular job to begin with!
It still performed decently if you didn't do the perfect rotation and even if you accidentally ghosted abilities occasionally or blocked your pets attacks with movement.

New Summoner looks cool and I can see lots of excited about it, but they really should be two different jobs.

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Who's to say they aren't planning on adding a DoT mage with the next expansion, now that SMN no longer falls into that roll?

This brings smn in line with how ff smn is.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Who's to say they aren't planning on adding a DoT mage with the next expansion, now that SMN no longer falls into that roll?

This brings smn in line with how ff smn is.

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I don't get how you guys read what I wrote and think the part that's the problem is the lack of DoT. I literally never even mentioned DoTs in the original post, only contrarian responders have who are trying to belittle the concern of them taking away complex job options from those who enjoy them.

An ability applying DoT instead of instant damage does not make it more difficult to play other than having to watch a debuff to keep it up. You don't have an understanding of how the job, rotation, and mechanics work to think that's the only thing lacking.

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Originally Posted by Oshirigami

I don't get how you guys read what I wrote and think the part that's the problem is the lack of DoT.

An ability applying DoT instead of instant damage does not make it more difficult to play other than having to watch a dot to keep it up. You don't have an understanding of how the job, rotation, and mechanics work to think that's the only thing lacking.

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No, you said there should be a spec for it to have dots, since its basically a new job. My point had nothing to do with difficulty of the job, its rotation, or mechanics. And only that maybe they'll make a DoT job since SMN is now a traditional FF SMN.

Plus, I wasn't quoting the OP, but a different post you made in the thread.

If its any consolation, I'm 100% sure that we didn't see the full kit for smn. Looking at the trailer and comparing it to the gameplay demo, yoshi p was lacking at least 1 skill that was a contextual aether skill.

I'm still holding onto hope that the between-demi-phases phase / GEM MYSTERY PHASE will have something other than woo pretty colors to keep us engaged. :x

My biggest issue is this change should have happened alongside a DoT caster being released. I do understand people are hype for the new SMN changes because it is admittedly on theme as can be but if people liked the playstyle of old SMN they basically got told there was no real class for them other then maybe BRD. Sure I can hear the next expansion DoT caster from here but that is telling people to wait 2 years for something they had been playing for several years now which seems kinda unfair.

Now that a DoT mage niche, arcane magics, and the old elemental white mage magics have all been opened up, I think the most likely job addition for 7.0 is a caster.

Followed closely by a melee DPS that uses scouting armor.

I don't know why everyone is so stressed out about this. DoTs and arcane magic never made much sense for the summoner job, and now we have things set up for a proper imagining of that in a later expansion.

(Although, if I were to be truly honest, I think scholar should have taken a lot of those features dropped by SMN to give it more of an identity).

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Originally Posted by Oshirigami

Even if players who want this "difficult to play and master, but rewarding" job like 4.2 Monk and 5.1 Summoner was are a minority... that minority are still players of the game and shouldn't be ignored.
Making a job for them does not hurt the other players who enjoy these more streamlined and easy to play job reworks. 2% of players wanting something like this is still tens of thousands of players.

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What pay off are you expecting for the "difficult to play and master" jobs/specializations you're suggesting?

SE isn't going to reward them with increased throughput when they want every job to be viable and included at end game.

Players would be more likely to exclude those who want to use the "difficult to play and master" specs because there's no way to tell you've actually mastered them sufficiently without resorting to third party tools. Sure, some players would look. Most wouldn't bother.

Something like WoW's Mage Tower would probably be needed to provide the rewards you seek, unless maybe the "difficult to play and master" part was designed with Deep Dungeon solos in mind.

For truly challenging combat design, you're better off going to a game that caters to a hardcore niche crowd than a MMO that has to appeal to a much broader audience.

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Originally Posted by Xeronia

My biggest issue is this change should have happened alongside a DoT caster being released. I do understand people are hype for the new SMN changes because it is admittedly on theme as can be but if people liked the playstyle of old SMN they basically got told there was no real class for them other then maybe BRD. Sure I can hear the next expansion DoT caster from here but that is telling people to wait 2 years for something they had been playing for several years now which seems kinda unfair.

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This. I'm interested to see what the final product of smn will play like (not excited 'cause I have been hurt by X.0 smn so many times before) it might be fun if it's not too simple (like I enjoy the variety in the gem mechanics, but I fear they might be unga bunga 1 button for 1 target or other button for 3 targets), but I am disappointed in SE for not mitigating the colossal void in their play aesthetic that this massive change has left.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Now that a DoT mage niche, arcane magics, and the old elemental white mage magics have all been opened up, I think the most likely job addition for 7.0 is a caster.

Followed closely by a melee DPS that uses scouting armor.

I don't know why everyone is so stressed out about this. DoTs and arcane magic never made much sense for the summoner job, and now we have things set up for a proper imagining of that in a later expansion.

(Although, if I were to be truly honest, I think scholar should have taken a lot of those features dropped by SMN to give it more of an identity).

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It made sense for the summoner job that XIV was presented with, and SE did a lot to justify it within the game world. Created magic entities are summoned via magic geometries, and Summons in this game are corruptive by nature. Kinda wished the dots would've fueled the summons in some way, instead of them just being cooldowns.

I wonder if we'll get that dps oracle class, and maybe a melee geomancer bruiser?

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No, you said there should be a spec for it to have dots, since its basically a new job. My point had nothing to do with difficulty of the job, its rotation, or mechanics. And only that maybe they'll make a DoT job since SMN is now a traditional FF SMN.

Plus, I wasn't quoting the OP, but a different post you made in the thread.

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You're deliberately refusing to read not just what I wrote in the original post, but the very post you're quoting there which was just 3 sentences, in order to strawman, where I said ... the entire post there.

I said there should be difficult jobs after the complex ones are over-simplified. There's just going to be BLM left after this, which really isn't as difficult as people make it out to be and even so people who want difficult jobs to master might not like that play style (as I don't).

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

What pay off are you expecting for the "difficult to play and master" jobs/specializations you're suggesting?

SE isn't going to reward them with increased throughput when they want every job to be viable and included at end game.

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That's clearly wrong or else they would have nerfed Summoner in 5.5. It is the difficult to play and master ranged job that gets the extra payoff of having a revive and party damage buff on top of doing top tier selfish DPS that's right up there with BLM and SAM.

Square has clearly deemed it worthy to have high damage due to the difficulty despite it also having utility in a party damage buff and rez compared to what RDM has in 5.5.

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Originally Posted by Oshirigami

That's clearly wrong or else they would have nerfed Summoner in 5.5.

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There are many reasons they could have chosen not to nerf SMN in 5.5. It could have been left as is because

- expac is ending and its more hassle than its worth to fix it with a big rework coming, especially since none of the fixes will likely inform the rework.

- 6.0 is right around the corner and maybe the battle team staff just didn't have time.

- They see it as a problem, but not a problem that's hurting anyone. So SMN is a bit overtuned for PvE, what's that gonna do, make the Savage runs your overgeared for even easier? Best to just leave it if it isn't causing problems.

- Maybe they have different data that doesn't show SMN as overperforming and they just don't see the situation the same way you do.

- etc.

They didn't do anything to SMN in 5.5... but that alone doesn't give us enough info to "confirm" anything.