This game has serious free-rider problems and it's getting worse. A suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Alxyzntlct

In my experience, that's the very definition of "elitism". Deciding based on subjective reasons who should and shouldn't get rewards. It's a slipper slope and introducing any form of punishment invariably will go too far in the wrong direction. Maybe that wasn't the intention, but it's where I've seen such thoughts go toward.

I feel that hobostew nailed the issue, that it's just the over-arching structure of the groups for the instance that's the issue. Not being able to kick/remove seriously problematic people is a core issue that I agree, hopefully gets addressed in the future.

But to reiterate, anything involving punishment on one end and extra rewards on the other isn't a practice I ever want to see again. I saw that too much in WoW and it resulted in making the game unpleasant to play because if you weren't part of the top-tier, then you were considered garbage.

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Here's the thing, it's not subjective. It would be based on a formula, and formulae by definition are not subjective. But the main thing I feel many are not getting is that what I'm suggesting would make playing with less skilled players desirable for top players. This is the whole point. In other terms, pick up their slack and you get better rewards. That's it. WoW is different in that you really want to play with good players because your reward is dependent on the group's performance. But I'm suggesting something very different. So if, say, you're in dalriada and do great and most other people do very bad, it will take you like 45 minutes to clear instead of the 15 minutes of an optimized run, but you get (just as an example of course) 3x mettle, 3x exp bonus, 3x the amount of whatever you're farming for your relic, increased drop rate for mount of hairstyle. That's the general idea behind it.

On the other hand, the "bottom" should be penalized in absolute terms. If, say, your potential is 100 and you're doing 20, it's not about not being very good at the game. It's just that you're leeching, plain and simple. You absolutely know what you're doing. What I'm saying is, in those very obvious cases, remove the reward. Set the bar low, but set it somewhere. Because it's absolutely preposterous that if I wanted to I could enter castrum, use a rubber band to fix my analogue stick and come back in 30 minutes to collect my rewards.

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Originally Posted by Alxyzntlct

In my experience, that's the very definition of "elitism". Deciding based on subjective reasons who should and shouldn't get rewards. It's a slipper slope and introducing any form of punishment invariably will go too far in the wrong direction. Maybe that wasn't the intention, but it's where I've seen such thoughts go toward.

I feel that hobostew nailed the issue, that it's just the over-arching structure of the groups for the instance that's the issue. Not being able to kick/remove seriously problematic people is a core issue that I agree, hopefully gets addressed in the future.

But to reiterate, anything involving punishment on one end and extra rewards on the other isn't a practice I ever want to see again. I saw that too much in WoW and it resulted in making the game unpleasant to play because if you weren't part of the top-tier, then you were considered garbage.

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Rewarding based on merit is not a punishment to those getting lower rewards. You are rewarded compensatory to the amount of work you provided. This is the epitome of fairness.

In contrast, giving the same reward to everyone even though 2% of the party did 95% of the work is extremely unfair to those doing all the work.

Your use of the word "Punishment" in this context is slightly manipulative. No offense.

You have to keep in mind that this is a theme park mmo. 90% of the game is designed to be enjoyed be everyone regardless of skill. While personally I do hate it when leechers are in the party, especially in DR normal, Yoshi won't do anything about it. This game rewards completion and not performance. It's ripe for abuse and has zero repercussions which is why you see people performing sub optimally at times in large content. People who say make a PF fail to understand how long it takes to fill vs. using DF, so its not feasible and normally comes off as arrogant. If you just want to get in and do a run or two and have limited time, DF is your only solution, unless you get lucky and there is a PF premade missing one more player and you get in (which is highly unlikely).

A good example is DRN speed run parties vs DF. You can literally get a relic using speed runs vs 2 DRN via PF. This shows how inefficient DF truly is and how bare-minimums are the name of the game. Atm DRN speed run PF's are frequent enough to be a weekly thing but once it's old content I hope you all enjoy 45+ minute dungeons. Honestly the only suggestion I can offer is for 24+ man content, if they aren't in the boss arena when the boss is defeated, they get no rewards, exp, loot, weekly tomes/token. People will probably still run into aoes to die and afk but at least they are in the arena. What the party decides to do with those players is up to them.

Honestly, this is an NA/EU problem since our internet is not time gated like it is in Asia, where players have to use Internet cafes and pay to play the game for limited time. There's also more emphasis on efficiency and speed since you have so limited time and anyone who doesn't meet those standards is quietly removed and ignored. Not so much here in NA where people literally set up bots just to afk in limsa. Consequence is the only thing that improves player skill and like I said 90% of the game is designed to not have that, which is good and bad.

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Originally Posted by Alxyzntlct

In my experience, that's the very definition of "elitism". Deciding based on subjective reasons who should and shouldn't get rewards. It's a slipper slope and introducing any form of punishment invariably will go too far in the wrong direction. Maybe that wasn't the intention, but it's where I've seen such thoughts go toward.

I feel that hobostew nailed the issue, that it's just the over-arching structure of the groups for the instance that's the issue. Not being able to kick/remove seriously problematic people is a core issue that I agree, hopefully gets addressed in the future.

But to reiterate, anything involving punishment on one end and extra rewards on the other isn't a practice I ever want to see again. I saw that too much in WoW and it resulted in making the game unpleasant to play because if you weren't part of the top-tier, then you were considered garbage.

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Well, you are still considered garbage when you are greatly underperforming. Most people just won't tell you that they think you are a garbage. So you get away with the same rewards as everyone else while contributing with basically nothing to the party/raid.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

What? That's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm more talking about not rewarding the bottom 20%,

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Sounds like a good way for FF14 to lose 20% of its subs.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Here's the thing, it's not subjective. It would be based on a formula, and formulae by definition are not subjective.

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So... why 20% then?
Why not 10%? 15? 4.75? 36?
What's the formulae you used to determine that 20% is the right number?

As long as content allows for a certain number of players to play (or not) at a subpar level, they will keep doing it. Unfortunately, I do not see a merit system being received well by this community either, and denying players reward based on subpar performance would be a PR nightmare.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Sounds like a good way for FF14 to lose 20% of its subs.




So... why 20% then?
Why not 10%? 15? 4.75? 36?
What's the formulae you used to determine that 20% is the right number?

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I was just giving an example there. There's a reason if I didn't put numbers in the OT. Ideally there should be a continuum of multipliers that either increases or decreases the reward.

Since you're asking, I chose 20% because it's a very low number and I wanted to make it obvious that I'm not asking for a system where only the very good players get rewards. If you're doing less than 20% of what you could do, however, it just means that you're not playing the game and you're probably watching netflix or whatever while pressing a couple of keys once in a while.

Any Merit-based system should somehow also be able to differentiate between a boosted Sprout with 20 hrs total play, and the level 80 200 hr Eden Gear players who do nothing but die and auto-attack the entire raid.

The latter are the same people who get assigned to your group project in school, do nothing the entire time, force you to do their work, yet still walk away with the group A+ grade.

of course it wouldnt be a fix percent of the players. that wouldnt be fair since player performance varies... imagine if everyone is doing very well and 20% still didnt get anything xD.

i mean you could say we have a 2.5s gcd.... so we could put it at 3s.... if someone uses a skill at least every 3sec you get a reward. 0.5 seconds more doesnt sound like much but it actually is... and then there are ogcd skills too.
just an example how it could be.

and about the elitism stuff.... nobody expects other players to do the maximum dmg possible, but i think we can expect more than the absolut minimum.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

Sadly, leeches will never go away, because they pay a subscription just like you do.

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And don't forget, there are more of them than there is of you ...

So, choose. Do you want to play this game with the current structure, or go find another game because this one died because you disparaged one too many of what you consider as 'leeches'?

Don't enjoy it? Find a game that you do enjoy ... I hear first person shooters are popular.