Why dont they just separate the two?

Yes, I want to spend x hours learning to play my job through loads of casual content, only to have to start all over again when I get to my first Extreme trial...

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Yes, I want to spend x hours learning to play my job through loads of casual content, only to have to start all over again when I get to my first Extreme trial...

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as im fairly sure i stated in one of my messages, the devs wouldn't need to do away with the current job setups in casual, players could even choose to use them in casual content if thats what they prefer, but i was saying it would be good if there was a separate style/loadout for the casual players, people who value fun and class design over homogenized number perfect balance mechanics when in casual content.

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Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

as im fairly sure i stated in one of my messages, the devs wouldn't need to do away with the current job setups in casual, players could even choose to use them in casual content if thats what they prefer, but i was saying it would be good if there was a separate style/loadout for the casual players, people who value fun and class design over homogenized number perfect balance mechanics when in casual content.

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your opinion of fun != everyone elses.
"The devs should make a casual rotation and a hardcore raider rotation!"
Okay, so now you can get criticized and flamed by using the "Weaker worse" rotation in content. That what you want, to give toxic people more ammo to be toxic with?

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

your opinion of fun != everyone elses.
"The devs should make a casual rotation and a hardcore raider rotation!"
Okay, so now you can get criticized and flamed by using the "Weaker worse" rotation in content. That what you want, to give toxic people more ammo to be toxic with?

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and thus we are back at the start. "we dont want elite and toxic players to rage out so lets cater to them, screw the casual players."

There are lots of games that say "screw the casual players," and many of them die shortly after, ffxiv is definitely not among them. Where the dev team have taken balance is consistently their choice and it errs on the side of "make this easier to play" and "simplify the mechanics of this job to absurdity" which are not things "elitists" have ever asked for.

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Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Well if all that was the case, why make a separate class system/bar for PVP when they probly just coulda kept everything in the classes the way it is, and just tweaked hp and dps numbers? since the classes are so balanced already by your example they basically just wasted their time on changing (and even now constantly balancing) the pvp system.

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They actually came out and admitted why. It became an absolute nightmare balancing the two different modes due to how PvE and PvP gameplay are fundamentally different in how they approach their given objective. PvP is unpredictable and meant to be quick "skirmishes" of sorts. Hence the significantly lower HP players have. Contrast that to Savage content which are essentially the exact same fight except with beefed up numbers and a few more mechanics. In fact, Savage encounters are actually designed first and subsequently stripped down for their Normal mode equivalent. If they were to separate the jobs, it essentially doubles their workload for very little benefit. Casual content in this game is incredibly easy. There's little process to adding defensive buffs, crowd control or stuff of that nature when the content is tuned low enough brute force is always the answer

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Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Why do you think FF14 has had and still has its In need of HEALER duty finder problem? Why do you think so many ppl are upset, and have even dropped the healer role all together? Why do you think so many ppl are upset with the way they did Blue-mage (arguably one of the most interesting and wanted classes, a borderline staple to the entire franchise) -- ruined and thrown out all to appease Competitive gameplay , which again, is not really even 10% of the game.

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This has nothing to do with balance and everything to do with their boring design. Even last expansion, White Mage remained widely more popular at the casual level than Astro despite the latter being objectively better and outright necessary to parse. What changed is SE oversimplifying them in an attempt to attract newer players to the role they perceived was "too intimidating". If anything, separating the jobs would make the casual experience worse not better since every job would be tuned with to the most basic level plausible since their only demographic for the "casual content" would be well casual players. By which I mean, players who barely have any idea what they're doing. They aren't going to add any complicated job designs as that goes against the very intent of separating jobs. Meanwhile, this would make getting into raids far more difficult. Not only would new raiders potentially have to relearn their selected job, but face content scaled far above their level since.

Additionally, the expectation of players who do the higher level content would be much higher as EX/Savage are literally designed to be fundamentally different in your hypothetical. Put simply, you're asking for a system which further segregates and excludes players.

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Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

and thus we are back at the start. "we dont want elite and toxic players to rage out so lets cater to them, screw the casual players."

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If all you do is dungeons for roulettes, leveling, glamour farm, or whatever, then there's no real reason to give much thought to playing at top levels. Stop dismissing poor player behavior and anti-group mentality in an MMO of all things by blanket excusing it as "cAsUaLs ArEnT bEiNg CaTeReD tO." Because casual players are.
"Oh no I was pressing nothing but chaos thrust in dungeon and the tank got mad and yelled at me."
Yeah, if you're holding back 3 other people and wasting their time like that I'd be annoyed to. Granted it's a dungeon so I couldn't personally care less, and if someone's being vitriolic, report them. But being told "stop wasting peoples time because you're unwilling to put in a bare minimum of effort to try" is not toxic, it's a response to someone else's toxic mindset; i.e. 'my fun and enjoyment > 3 other peoples time and fun.'

Raid rewards aren't exciting. The ultimate got delayed. What else is there for """hardcore""" raiders to do but log in on [day], clear out the tier, then go about their way? Maybe cap tomestones for the week.
Meanwhile crafting got an overhaul. Gathering got touched up. Gold Saucer got some tweaks in TT. Mahjong was added. Fishing was expanded upon with this ocean fishing thing. Ishgard Restoration. New emotes were added and the ability to consume a food item furnishing while seated to help further immerse role players.

Stop trying to make excuses because you feel you need to justify how oPpReSsEd CaSuAl GaMeRs are.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Stop trying to make excuses because you feel you need to justify how oPpReSsEd CaSuAl GaMeRs are.

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im not justyfying "how oPpReSsEd CaSuAl GaMeRs are" , i just want our class(s) to be fun and engaging to play, but apparently that and the number perfect balance SE is prioritizing cannot coexist...or can it...

If your not happy being a scholar trying playing Blackmage.
Or maybe even AST. It more fun then playing SCH.

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Originally Posted by P0W3RK1D

Why do you think FF14 has had and still has its In need of HEALER duty finder problem?

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Is there a permanent shortage of healers on some servers? On my DC it hasn't been an issue that I've noticed since the initial rush of GNB levelling naturally meant healers were in demand. Now it's back to the usual state of varying between tank and healer, but more often tank.

Plus, even if all jobs were played perfectly evenly, you'd still get healers in demand by simple maths. There are 4 tanks, 3 healers and 10(?) DPS. Group them into parties and you have a tank and 4 DPS left over. Healer is in need.