Leveling Kit tweaks for Tank Jobs

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Originally Posted by Quor

Truth be told tanks and healers are pretty bottom of the list right now, minus the ever-whining SCH's anyway, who are still having trouble adjusting to not being OP after three straight versions of it.

That might sound harsh but it's the truth. SCH was way overtuned prior to ShB and was due to be brought into line.

I wouldn't worry too much about the lack of info right now; what we're seeing with the LL is both stuff that's been delayed largely due to the coronavirus as well as been in the pipeline since prior to 5.2. Any recent ideas or criticisms from prior to that won't have had a chance to be addressed due to the backlog. Although to be fair, we probably won't see any kind level shifting for job actions until 6.0 comes out, because SE has shown that they are very unlikely to make that kind of change mid-xpac.

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I wouldn't say that SCH deserved to remain at the top, but their criticisms are much valid in my opinion. DPS neutering aside, they broke the fairies, selene is outright deleted, and the jobs older healing potencies were not buffed to compensate for their loss of mitigation via dps just to name a few problems. it has glaring mana issues from lv 30 to 45 because of the removal of aetherflow, but adloquium still costs 1k mana, and without lustrate till lv 45 (or energy drain for that matter) you go through your resources way too fast.

My bigger worry however, is that in their chase for "balance and accessibility", square will be too busy catering to the wrong crowd to realise that their core audience no longer wants to play said jobs, and with the core audience gone, the overall skill level of the playerbase will be reduced to cure1 bots and tanks who dont use mitigation

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

Dropping a small follow up on my thoughts due to the Live Letter.

The lack of announcements for Tank (and healer) adjustments is concerning. I hope that Square is just saving this stuff to surprise us with? or else I can definitely foresee a large uproar. having gone almost an entire year since SHB dropped with almost no changes to tank jobs could definitely make people feel worse about SQ and might lose faith in them. I just hope they make even some small changes to make each of the tank jobs feel just a little better beyond being balanced at lv 80.

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The translation in discord says WAR will get adjustment to make it easier to keep Storm's Eye buff. Nothing about DRK tho.

From what i understand of warrior, the biggest thing i wish it had was beast gauge generation the moment you learned it's AoE combo, even if it's at a lower rate of generation and then upgraded to the current value at level 74. Not being able to steel cyclone or decimate pre-74 without popping cooldowns feels really bad tbh.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

From what i understand of warrior, the biggest thing i wish it had was beast gauge generation the moment you learned it's AoE combo, even if it's at a lower rate of generation and then upgraded to the current value at level 74. Not being able to steel cyclone or decimate pre-74 without popping cooldowns feels really bad tbh.

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Would this also fix the problem of WAR's gap closer? I have a friend that says he doesn't like how it feels like it eats into his DPS just to move between packs. not too sure since I don't play WAR (I'm more a greatsword than greataxe type of player)

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

Would this also fix the problem of WAR's gap closer? I have a friend that says he doesn't like how it feels like it eats into his DPS just to move between packs. not too sure since I don't play WAR (I'm more a greatsword than greataxe type of player)

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Onslaught is a strange beast. It's technically dps neutral for it's cost, with the benefit of the lowest CD of the gap closers on tanks, as well as the longest range. The issue is you lose out on potential better damage, as it's only a gain if you're making up for a lost GCD via the gap closer OR if it's used under IR.

This is in contrast to PLD and GNB, which want to stuff their gap closers into their dps window. DRK is a bit of a middle ground, as they only want to dump their charges under raid buffs, but otherwise are free to keep a charge in the tank as needed. Onslaught is perfectly fine where it is imo, because it's great for utility and ok for damage under the right circumstances. If you remove the cost then it just becomes free damage used on CD, and if you buff it then it just becomes something you use on CD. As it stands now, it's actually a decision that needs to be made instead of something you use as soon as it's available.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Onslaught is a strange beast. It's technically dps neutral for it's cost, with the benefit of the lowest CD of the gap closers on tanks, as well as the longest range. The issue is you lose out on potential better damage, as it's only a gain if you're making up for a lost GCD via the gap closer OR if it's used under IR.

This is in contrast to PLD and GNB, which want to stuff their gap closers into their dps window. DRK is a bit of a middle ground, as they only want to dump their charges under raid buffs, but otherwise are free to keep a charge in the tank as needed. Onslaught is perfectly fine where it is imo, because it's great for utility and ok for damage under the right circumstances. If you remove the cost then it just becomes free damage used on CD, and if you buff it then it just becomes something you use on CD. As it stands now, it's actually a decision that needs to be made instead of something you use as soon as it's available.

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My friend had an idea he told me about the other night. he said it might be cool if the lv 15 ranged attack generated the gauge needed to use the gap closer, but I'm not sure how much of a big change that would bring. also he said he desperately wants butcher's block back, perhaps repurposed as an alternate combo ender with either a buff or a dot . thoughts?

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Originally Posted by bundythenoob

also he said he desperately wants butcher's block back, perhaps repurposed as an alternate combo ender with either a buff or a dot . thoughts?

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I suggested something nearly identical to that back in Stormblood. The general idea was for each aggro combo to place a debuff on the target that increased damage dealt by 1%, with each tank having it's own unique version of said debuff (so 2% damage bonus possible, 1% from each tank). Have the debuff last 30s, meaning each tank is incentivized to throw out one aggro combo every half minute. Fairly simple, but provides worth and reason for using the aggro combo, but not to the exclusion of the other combos. I also wanted them to treat each aggro combo similar to Butcher's Block. BB was actually the highest potency combo for WAR, but it was overshadowed by the 20 gauge gain on Storm's Path, since 10 more gauge was worth more potency than the 30 additional potency you got doing HS>SS>BB. But at least this way you've got a nice utility debuff paired with the highest raw potency combo a tank can do. Maybe the actual potency numbers would have needed tweaking, but maybe there would have been justification for certain situations where putting the 3rd hit or the 2nd and 3rd hit of your aggro combo inside raid buff windows was worthwhile.

One thing I've learned about these boards is that most people here are sheep. That might sound harsh, but it's merely my observation. Appeals to emotion or authority, logical fallacies all the way down, no desire to any meaningful debate...I could go on. Now to be fair, I've had some good discussions with a few people around here to be sure, but it's a sad truth of most humans that they are much more prone to making the easy criticism than they are to try and take a risk and actually suggest something and face that criticism themselves. This is to say nothing of making a criticism and then trying to create a synthesis of concept by offering their own suggestion.

Suffice it to say, my idea was not well-received. Most people just wanted to "get rid" of aggro combos. More simplification. Of course, these same people often sneered at those people who couldn't "git gud" at a job, so it was ironic seeing them encourage further dumbing down of tank gameplay.

Anyway, I don't suggest too much nowadays. There's a handful of people who are willing and able to engage in meaningful discussion, and I enjoy the occasional conversation I have with them on the boards, but mostly people look at FFlogs or listen to the e-celeb flavor of the month to get their "idea" of how tanks are doing, with little thought beyond that. Maybe the numbers on FFlogs "don't look right" to them or something, so SE has to have all hands on deck to buff tank damage because it "feels bad" or something. Nothing interesting that would add challenge or complexity to the job; just gimme bigger numbers. Or the tired refrain that "only" dps matters, but when you bring up that if the healers don't heal and the tanks don't tank then no fight would ever progress past the first 60 seconds, and it's just assumed that the tanks and healers will be flawlessly performing their tank/heal stuff so that means the only thing that matters is damage. Peak sophistry. It's all so tiresome. The kind of tired that sleep won't fix.

As for your other suggestion, I've often thought about what would happen if the tanks each had something unique tied to their ranged attacks. Not anything that you would want to incorporate on a regular basis, but something where "oh, I have to do this mechanic so it's time to spam my ranged attack for 4 GCD's" isn't seen as a complete and total loss like it is now. It could be something as simple as DRK gains like 100-200 MP, GNB gets a small stacking potency buff on their next attack (20 pot per attack, stacks 3 times maybe), that sort of thing. Taking that idea and expanding it I think having Tomahawk grant beast gauge is too simple, and too strong. Every 10 points of gauge is worth ~118 potency, and that would damn near double the effective potency of Tomahawk, which is a huge buff. But the idea is certainly a sound one. Taking a page from DRK, maybe Tomahawk grants a buff for 15s that makes the next use of Onslaught free. You could only ever have one of this buff at a time, but repeated uses of Tomahawk would refresh the duration on the buff, essentially giving WAR all the incentive in the world to dive back in when the opportunity arises.

That's a hair too much like DRK though (specifically how Dark Arts works, albeit much more limited here) so let's add a bit more to it. In addition to this "free Onslaught" buff, Tomahawk would also grant a second buff that stacks up to 3 times. This buff would make it so that the next non-Tomahawk GCD has an additional two effects; first off, each stack of the buff grants an extra 20 raw potency to the attack, for a maximum of 60 additional potency. This potency would work on stuff from Heavy Swing and Overpower to Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone; every GCD in other words. Secondly, with at least one stack of this buff, the next non-Tomahawk GCD used would also refresh Storm's Eye back to it's full duration.

Putting all this together, WAR now has a ranged attack that zeroes the cost of their gap closer, making it a bit easier to maintain their rotation over the course of a fight (no more being stuck out because you miscalculated gauge or missed a GCD by a hair at some point). At the same time, it also increases complexity; 60 free potency isn't much, but 60 free guaranteed direct crit potency sure is nice. That's essentially 10% of a Fell Cleave. WAR now has an incentive to unleash a big attack - ideally Inner Chaos or an IR'd Fell Cleave - immediately after closing back in on the target, the better to optimize this 60 potency with. WAR's are now rewarded for planning ahead a bit more with their CD usage, maybe tweaking Infuriate use or slightly delaying an IR window in order to maximize the damage gain.

And if you can't get that whole 60 potency, then you still get at least 20 potency, a free Onslaught, and SE gets refreshed in a single GCD. This would tackle a pair of QoL issues for WAR but in a way that's way more interesting than something like increasing SE's duration or what not.

i quite like the idea of the ranged attacks not breaking your combo and giving each job a small QOL perk. the idea that tomahawk could refresh SE buff and make your next onslaught free would be really nice, ideally a trait you can get in the mid 60s. the 60 potency thing would probably work out if they made it a high level trait (like 70+) so as to not upset the balance for ultimate content while also making the other 3 jobs have unique versions of that.

as for the return of the old emnity combos, I'm not sure why anyone would rather see them removed than be repurposed, but i do like the idea of them giving you something else. i don't think square wants to return to mandatory debuffs, but small QOL changes would be nice too. Can't think of anything good atm without breaking balance though, but that's more due to square's insistence that tank job damage be curtailed so hard (a whole separate issue entirely)

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

If you gave DRK Stalwart Soul at lv40, you'd need to remove or heavily reduce MP generation until a later point, otherwise the AOE dps of DRK at lv40-60 would be absolutely bonkers. What you could do for example is introduce it at Lv40, let it generate blood at lv62 (blood gauge acquired) and generate (more) MP [200/300 -> 600] and even Blood [10 -> 20].

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Except there are traits that already fit the bill; "Blackblood" which isn't unlocked until you get your first Blood Gauge spender to go with it, and "Darkside Mastery" for the Edge/Flood upgrade. Therefore moving Stalwart Soul is actually a better decision for this expansion.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

Except there are traits that already fit the bill; "Blackblood" which isn't unlocked until you get your first Blood Gauge spender to go with it, and "Darkside Mastery" for the Edge/Flood upgrade. Therefore moving Stalwart Soul is actually a better decision for this expansion.

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I think he was referring more to the fact that the extra 600mp would make edge and flood too strong for ARR content, due to the fact that not only is stalwart 160pot, but the extra edges and floods will add up along with the darkside 10% bonus.

My thought on that was just to nerf edge/flood, or to maybe reduce darkside to 5% until level 62 or something, but I do strongly feel that stalwart should be moved to lv 40, not because it's OP, but because having to wait until lv 72 for a tool that all other tanks get at lv 40 feels terribad, especially for a job that is being used as the poster boy for SHB advertisement.