Do SMN and BRD need 2 DoTs?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

RIP Flaming Arrow. Thou shalt never be forgotten.

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Oh this was a thing? I only played as early as 2.0 and they only skill I remember losing was that "needle-like" rain of arrows :D

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Originally Posted by JowyAtreides

You've answered your own question here for Summoner. Miasma has a cast time and Bio is instant and I think different potencies (can't check from work).

Bards rely on DoT ticks critting to proc their songs effects, they arguably care less for the actual damage of the DoT's than for the frequency, so your suggestion would need to come with a damage per half second (for example) counter. They also have a pair of skills that has potency dependent on the number of DoT's are on the enemies so these would need reworking. They've also got almost no skills to play with anymore, I sort of wish they had 3 DoT's personally, such as a fire arrow that does burn damage.

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The cast time on miasma means that it and bio can be applied simultaneously, and having the same duration means that they should always be applied simultaneously. There’s no point in them being separate because they’re always used together, like Berserk and Inner Release.
Im not advocating for the dumbing down of summoner or bard, I’m highlighting that there are redundant skills.

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Originally Posted by JowyAtreides

Oh this was a thing? I only played as early as 2.0 and they only skill I remember losing was that "needle-like" rain of arrows :D

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Flaming Arrow was a 30s ground AOE that dealt damage over time to all who went into it. It was on a 60s cooldown and could snapshot raid buffs. It was a part of BRD from 2.0 to the end of HW. They removed it going into Stormblood.

If you’re talking about Rain of Death, BRD still has that.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Im not advocating for the dumbing down of summoner or bard, I’m highlighting that there are redundant skills.

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Simplifying them into a single button is dumbing them down. BRD already lost enough of its complexity going into ShB—it really doesn’t need to lose anything else.

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Originally Posted by JowyAtreides

Oh this was a thing? I only played as early as 2.0 and they only skill I remember losing was that "needle-like" rain of arrows :D

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It was yeah, I think it was some ground AoE targetting, and it got removed in Stormblood if I remember correctly.


I'm with Hyomin there, plus maining SMN : Two DoTs is fine, as long as the rotation gives you efficient tools for DoT uptime management (which Bard has, and SMN too outside of 2-3 seconds every 2 minutes).
Button bloat is not a thing on Bard, really.
On SMN that's a thing perhaps, but I don't think that's the first thing that should be considered.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

If you’re talking about Rain of Death, BRD still has that.

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I think they are talking about Wide Volley, that rain of purplish/pinkish thin arrows.

http://i.imgur.com/lcKxsYJ.gif

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Simplifying them into a single button is dumbing them down. BRD already lost enough of its complexity going into ShB—it really doesn’t need to lose anything else.

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Then instead of it and caustic bite being a button you only press once per 30s+ transition phase, why not ask to have it reworked to be something worthwhile?

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Then instead of it and caustic bite being a button you only press once per 30s+ transition phase, why not ask to have it reworked to be something worthwhile?

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The DoTs are worthwhile: they’re the source of our Repertoire, and our Repertoire procs many a different things. Personally, I’d rather our DoTs return to how dynamic they were back in SB, where we could use them to snapshot buffs and manipulate our proc rate. However, I don’t expect this to ever be a thing again.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I think they are talking about Wide Volley, that rain of purplish/pinkish thin arrows.

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Ah. The “needle-like” made me thing of Rain of Death, since it looks more needle-esque to me.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The DoTs are worthwhile: they’re the source of our Repertoire, and our Repertoire procs many a different things. Personally, I’d rather our DoTs return to how dynamic they were back in SB, where we could use them to snapshot buffs and manipulate our proc rate. However, I don’t expect this to ever be a thing again.

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I believe you’re missing the point entirely so I will lay out my entire argument in simple terms.

Caustic Bite and Stormbite do not need to be separate buttons are they are only used together, or refreshed simultaneously with Iron Jaws.
As such, there would be no significant changes to BRD gameplay (besides 1 extra heavy shot in the opener) if Iron Jaws applied both DoTs instead of refreshing their durations.

I believe that 3 buttons existing to do 1 button’s job is bad job design, so I want either:
1) The 3 buttons consolidated into 1. This is the boring solution.
2) The debuff durations to not be identical. This is the better solution, as it gives Caustic and Storm more uses than just ‘apply in the opener and unbind’

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Originally Posted by Mansion

I think they are talking about Wide Volley, that rain of purplish/pinkish thin arrows.

http://i.imgur.com/lcKxsYJ.gif

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That's the one yes, apologies for the confusion Hyomin :)

I also remember that fire puddle now!

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

I believe you’re missing the point entirely so I will lay out my entire argument in simple terms.

Caustic Bite and Stormbite do not need to be separate buttons are they are only used together, or refreshed simultaneously with Iron Jaws.
As such, there would be no significant changes to BRD gameplay (besides 1 extra heavy shot in the opener) if Iron Jaws applied both DoTs instead of refreshing their durations.

I believe that 3 buttons existing to do 1 button’s job is bad job design, so I want either:
1) The 3 buttons consolidated into 1. This is the boring solution.
2) The debuff durations to not be identical. This is the better solution, as it gives Caustic and Storm more uses than just ‘apply in the opener and unbind’

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That is completely different than what you suggested earlier. Make up your mind.

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Originally Posted by YusiKha

Would removing Wind Bite and Miasma (and adjusting potencies to make up for the lost dot) actually affect level 80 gameplay at all?

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Originally Posted by JowyAtreides

Bards rely on DoT ticks critting to proc their songs effects, they arguably care less for the actual damage of the DoT's than for the frequency, so your suggestion would need to come with a damage per half second (for example) counter. They also have a pair of skills that has potency dependent on the number of DoT's are on the enemies so these would need reworking. They've also got almost no skills to play with anymore, I sort of wish they had 3 DoT's personally, such as a fire arrow that does burn damage.

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Repertoire procs are now a flat 40% chance (or 20% chance if you're synced below level 64) which means no more reliance on Crit Chance. Anyways, I do agree that we lost quite a bit and it would be nice to get some stuff back. Flaming Arrow would certainly be neat.