Samurai - Kaiten Issue

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Originally Posted by Jorthak

True, but can easily be fixed with a trait at 52 instead of Kaiten being introduced to the move set. (lvl 52 trait Iaijutsu is now 50% more potent, but now costs 20 kenki)

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I guess many of us players are just as forgetful about the leveling experience as the devs seem to be.

At level 52, you'd be limited to Midare only. Higanbana, generating only 5-10 Kenki over its Sen generation in ST combat, and Tenka Goken, generating only 10-15 Kenki over its Sen generation in ST combat, would be impossible to cast. That or you'd be forced to spam Enpi to make up the difference. And all that's assuming the Samurai lands every positional, else they can't even use Midare until having overridden as many Sen as they missed positionals (or, spam Yukikaze).

You don't get anything like current Kenki play until level 62. The two experiences are worlds apart.

hmm good point. guess it would require more trait / ability shuffling... hmm...

What if Kaiten became a heavy thrust/enochian type of buff

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Originally Posted by Duskane

What if Kaiten became a heavy thrust/enochian type of buff

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Then it'd be far less compelling even than now. There's a good reason Enochian is considered bloat and Heavy Thrust, also considered bloat, was removed.

Or combine Kenki Mastery 1&2 and give it to SAM at lv.50. Not sure if it's a good idea.

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Originally Posted by cactuarzzzz

Or combine Kenki Mastery 1&2 and give it to SAM at lv.50. Not sure if it's a good idea.

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The potency implications of such a skill would be massive. And, again, I just don't see the point. Kaiten hasn't been a poorly designed skill and, if they'd just fix the accidental double-tap issue, would in no way be a poorly designed skill now.

I'd agree readily if one wanted to make the claim that Shoha/Meditation, Senei/Guren, or Third Eye/Merciful Eyes/Seigan could use some consolidation. But, Kaiten?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The potency implications of such a skill would be massive. And, again, I just don't see the point. Kaiten hasn't been a poorly designed skill and, if they'd just fix the accidental double-tap issue, would in no way be a poorly designed skill now.

I'd agree readily if one wanted to make the claim that Shoha/Meditation, Senei/Guren, or Third Eye/Merciful Eyes/Seigan could use some consolidation. But, Kaiten?

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I mean instead of 2 mastery at separate level, make it just 1 skill and move it to lv 50. but I can agree it isn't a good idea.

As i thought about it, the DPS for Sam is a bit low at 50 and 60 due to the lack of Kenki anyways.

Why not make it so the Kenki generation rate at level 52 works like the Kenki mastery 2 trait. Then move Kaiten to a trait at 52 to be a 25% damage increase to Iaijutsu, and also add the 20 Kenki cost to Iaijutsu? (This way the Sam DPS gets to be comparable to other DPS at 60 at the very least) Then the level where Kenki Mastery 2 used to be, add in Kaiten Mastery 2 which then increases the value to 50% at the same cost of 20 Kenki?

Also i seen a post about making a mistake and using Kaiten with "Gekko, Kasha, Yukikaze" for example while it has it's 5 second recast timer. The thing is sure it sucks you have to wait 5 second to use Kaiten again, but you can also "Queue up" your next combo before using Kaiten again. Meaning: Hakaze (2 - 2.5 seconds) > Shifu (2 - 2.5 seconds) > Kaiten > Iaijutsu > Kasha without fear of losing your combo too. So while the recast timer can be kind of detrimental, you can still get around it by queueing up another combo while you wait for the recast timer. There is no way to get back lost kenki on accidental button presses. (in the immediate sense) so by having it as a 1 second recast, you hurt yourself even more because now not only could you accidentally use it with "Kasha, Gekko, or Yukikaze" you can also accidentally press it twice causing even more error.

The argument of Heavy Thrust / Enochian for a comparison is kind of a bad one, if Kaiten were to be a 30 second consistent damage bonus, then yes it would be like Heavy Thrust / Enochian, but since it's "consumed" upon the next weapon skill used, it doesn't function the same was as those 2 abilities. Because of that reason it becomes even more of a bloated ability than Heavy Thrust and Enochian ever was.

Tbh, I'd be really happy if instead of merging Kaiten with Iaijutsu, they'd prevent players from applying Kaiten again if the buff is already active. Kaiten isn't a "bloating" skill in your hotbar. Senei/Guren is one tho. Merciful Eyes/Third Eye is one too. While I understand the fact that without Senei, Samuraï wouldn't have gained any really cool new animation from 70 to 80, the extra space it takes does hinder your hotbar, even more while playing on controller. The same can be said about Merciful Eye, which has lost its enmity reduction buff, making it a really, really niche skill now, that you often wouldn't take over Seigan.

Thing with Samuraï is that we do have a lot of really niche skills that will be used once or twice during a fight (or even not at all, in the case of Guren). Meditate along with the infamous Shoha, the Yaten/Enpi/Gyoten combo (again, make Enpi not break combo, that would make such a huge difference), Merciful Eyes heals barely enough to be qualified as a decent self heal after getting hit with Third Eye. I dunno about you, but I heal more with a single tick of Bloodbath/Combo finisher than with Merciful Eye, Kaeshi Higanbana... And now we even got a bad Hagakure in the insane list of skills that are almost never used.

Niche skills are cool, don't get me wrong. They allow us to optimize and adapt to a lot of situations (Again, flexibility is key when playing a Sam, which is why Hagakure was really good in Stormblood) but there are times when it's just... Bad to have that much "useless" skills that will barely get used in one or two fight (talking about Kaeshi Higanbana here as an example).

Imo there needs to be some deeper thought behind 5.X Samurai because right now... It doesn't feel like we improved since Stormblood. Yes, the goal was to make it even better at doing what it already does ("nailed it", said the dev who removed Hagakure at the time) but I still wonder why half of my hotbar is just full of skills that most of the time I won't use more than once in a fight. Merge some skills with others, at least some skills that do proc. Seigan into Shinten. Merciful Eye into Third Eye. Find some reason to use Kaeshi Higanbana. Find a way to fuse Guren and Senei, maybe find a way to keep both animations if peoples really want it... But atm, for a job that requires a lot of fight optimization, the job itself lacks a lot of it. :rolleyes:

I for one would be all for Kaiten to be grayed out on the hot bar if the Buff was currently active on the character too. I believe its the only ability in game with a 1 second recast time with a low resource cost and not a direct damaging attack if i am not mistaken. As long as it doesn't put a player in a 1 second CD from accidentally pressing it and can't be pressed again while its active, it would be tuned correctly.