(Spoiler) About amaurots downfall

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

I've been slowly coalescing a theory that both Hydaelyn and Zodiark actually predate their own Summoning - that what the Ancients unknowingly did was give FORM to a "Will of the Planet" that already existed. If this were the case, then Hydaelyn's comments (by way of the Word of the Mother) that she and Zo predate life makes a little more sense. She also noted that Zodiark "coveted power"; perhaps he coveted that power as a kind of self-defense, in order to stop the Ancients from harming the planet with their Creation magic. He used the Sound to agitate them, and took advantage of their great Summoning in order to gain an active form. (If that's the case, though, it's quite a gambit; it's unclear how he could imagine that one would have lead to the other!)

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If I am right, and Lahabrea had a hand in the original crisis, as well as having a seat on the governing body of Amaurot - that is, if we was working with a pre-embodied Zodiark - then he could have shaped the exact response to the crisis and planted the idea of Zodiark in the conclave's head, as well as arguing for it.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

She also noted that Zodiark "coveted power"; perhaps he coveted that power as a kind of self-defense, in order to stop the Ancients from harming the planet with their Creation magic. He used the Sound to agitate them, and took advantage of their great Summoning in order to gain an active form.

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I believe that this is related to the manner in which Hydaelyn and Zodiark behave in regards of sacrifice. Hydaelyn doesn't seem to encourage worship of herself, nor does she require ritual sacrifice in the form of lives or aether. Instead she rewards a select few champions with her blessing when they perform some manner of sacrifice personal to them, such as the actions taken by Ardbert and company as seen during Shadowbringers' role quests. She also seems to have no compulsion against bleeding herself dry, so to speak, in the defense of her champions, as seen in the Praetorium wherein she shields us from the unleashed Ultima spell.

By contrast, according to Emet-Selch the Ancients had to sacrifice their own lives so that Zodiark would do what was asked of him, be it ending the calamity destroying their world or restoring life to it. it's possible that, like Hydaelyn, Zodiark doesn't actually require this, but rather does it as a sort of equivalent exchange in order to avoid expending his own power. A being who values self-sacrifice as much as Hydaelyn seems to might see that as coveting power.

We don't have a lot to go off of yet but I had assumed the root cause was the Ancients' creation magic. Fundamentally it's the same thing as the present's summoning magic, with the difference being that the Ancients had so much aether in their bodies that they could do it themselves. But if they did it so often, even for things like making clothes and buildings, then I'd imagine eventually they'd still start to hurt the world just like summoning too many primals does today. So I assume they put too much strain on the planet.

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Originally Posted by Eyvind

An alternative possibility could have been suggested by the Anyder dungeon, though, and the lore associated with it. Anyder teaches us that a) Lahabrea was a professor of something called "phantomology" which as far as I can tell is creating monsters for science and as a strange art form, and b) that Anyder seemed to have trouble controlling its creations. We know Archaeotania broke out, and a bunch of creatures did as well, none of which seems directly related to the crisis

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Archaeotania was a monster begotten by the Final Days in a different city, that the Akademia researchers captured to study and understand what the Final Days actually did. It is through this that Lahabrea came up with the theory that the monsters born of the Final Days came from the ancients deepest subconcious fears, and came up with the idea of Guardian Forces, monsters requiring sacrifice of the entirety of an ancients lifeforce, that were designed specifically to combat the threat of the Final Days.

It can be theorised that the process behind the GF's would later be expanded upon by Lahabrea in his design for Zodiark, and the GF's can be considered 'demi-primals' of a sort (not the summoner-type demis, but just half-baked primals, which maybe primal Enkidu can be shoved under).

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Originally Posted by Rosenstrauch

By contrast, according to Emet-Selch the Ancients had to sacrifice their own lives so that Zodiark would do what was asked of him, be it ending the calamity destroying their world or restoring life to it. it's possible that, like Hydaelyn, Zodiark doesn't actually require this, but rather does it as a sort of equivalent exchange in order to avoid expending his own power. A being who values self-sacrifice as much as Hydaelyn seems to might see that as coveting power.

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The first two sets of sacrifices were required just to summon Zodiark. The Ancients did not, to our knowledge, bribe him with souls as a means of securing his willing cooperation.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

We don't have a lot to go off of yet but I had assumed the root cause was the Ancients' creation magic. Fundamentally it's the same thing as the present's summoning magic, with the difference being that the Ancients had so much aether in their bodies that they could do it themselves. But if they did it so often, even for things like making clothes and buildings, then I'd imagine eventually they'd still start to hurt the world just like summoning too many primals does today. So I assume they put too much strain on the planet.

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Information currently available suggests that the Ancients did not make any use of external aether whatsoever during the creation process. Everything they did was entirely internally powered. Furthermore, everything we know about the cataclysm they faced thus far is that it was geological in origin. Their powers became dangerous only after a sound emanating from deep within the planet caused them to go haywire.

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Originally Posted by Absimiliard

The first two sets of sacrifices were required just to summon Zodiark. The Ancients did not, to our knowledge, bribe him with souls as a means of securing his willing cooperation.

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The first set of sacrifices (half of the Ancients / Amaurotines) were made to create / summon Zodiark.

The second set of sacrifices (half of those remaining, or 25% of the original population that survived the Sound) were made to rehabilitate the planet, which had been rendered inhospitable (if not uninhabitable) by the chaos created by the Sound.

The third set of (intended) sacrifices (some measure of "planetary life energy," most likely mortals) were set to resurrect that 75% of the Ancients that were sacrificed to Zodiark.

I don't think it's so much as the Ancients bribed him, so much as he needs energy (aether) to do things as all primals do, and the scale on which Zodiark operates far exceeds the primals summoned in contemporary times. According to Emet-Selch he had to "rewrite the laws of reality" as they pertained to the planet, and fixing the planet afterwards would also be no mean feat. The Ancients "fed" him, for lack of a better term, so that Zodiark could do the things they wanted him to do. Despite being "the will of the star," he's still beholden to the wishes and vision of his summoners.

It was when some number of other Ancients grew tired of the sacrifices to Zodiark that they broke off and started the conflict that ended with Hydaelyn sundering and imprisoning Zodiark, shattering the planet into its now-familiar Source and reflections. And that, as they say, is that.

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Originally Posted by MrThinker

Archaeotania was a monster begotten by the Final Days in a different city, that the Akademia researchers captured to study and understand what the Final Days actually did. It is through this that Lahabrea came up with the theory that the monsters born of the Final Days came from the ancients deepest subconcious fears, and came up with the idea of Guardian Forces, monsters requiring sacrifice of the entirety of an ancients lifeforce, that were designed specifically to combat the threat of the Final Days.

It can be theorised that the process behind the GF's would later be expanded upon by Lahabrea in his design for Zodiark, and the GF's can be considered 'demi-primals' of a sort (not the summoner-type demis, but just half-baked primals, which maybe primal Enkidu can be shoved under).

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Just to expand on the other city, it's mentioned in Amaurot(or in the Anyder, I can't remember exactly) that the Sound began in the Far East. It's also stated during the debate sidequest that another city "across the pond" was facing a crisis, though if that was related to the Sound it isn't mentioned.

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Originally Posted by JeanneOrnitier

We don't have a lot to go off of yet but I had assumed the root cause was the Ancients' creation magic. Fundamentally it's the same thing as the present's summoning magic, with the difference being that the Ancients had so much aether in their bodies that they could do it themselves. But if they did it so often, even for things like making clothes and buildings, then I'd imagine eventually they'd still start to hurt the world just like summoning too many primals does today. So I assume they put too much strain on the planet.

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The one thing I've had issue with on the theory of the creation magic being their downfall is the fact the Ancients were so long lived that they've been apparently doing this for a very long time. I was curious at why the breaking point then vs earlier times in their existence. Was it due to population or what?

Basically I can subscribe behind a specific creation Magic act (or sets of) that did cause the incident, but just the presence of it with an eternal race doesn't quite jive as it being the cause. It just seems we're processing it as a short term thing when their existence spans much longer.


As far as Guardian Force I just figured is was another term for Primal like Eikon just what it was called in Ancient times since it simply makes sense that the term evolved over time. We may see with the story progressing, but I wasn't quick to assume it was going to translate to the same thing - just because they're giving homage from a different FF..

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

As far as Guardian Force I just figured is was another term for Primal like Eikon just what it was called in Ancient times since it simply makes sense that the term evolved over time. We may see with the story progressing, but I wasn't quick to assume it was going to translate to the same thing - just because they're giving homage from a different FF..

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To be fair, I have no idea on the lore of GFs in FFVIII. They just seemed to be monsters that existed there without real explanation.
As for the nature of GFs being like Primals, yes that is right, which is why I called them demi-primals.

There is currently a theory that Eden, due to its nature in FFVIII, is in fact a stronger GF from Amaurot that the Ascians attempted to use in their Rejoining plans. If this idea has merit due to that meta-reasoning, then we might found out more in the future raids in 5.2 or 5.4

All I'm going to say is Joel 2. Blow ye the trumpet of Zion.