Please consider giving PLD a way to generate Oath gauge outside of auto attacks.

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08-09-2019, 04:06 AM
Saeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabooa

Giving Bulwark's effect to Shelltron and then removing gauge generation on blocking has been the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, ever.

Bulwark did not guarantee blocks though. It was also on a 3 minute recast which was the same CD as old Sentinel and Holmgang. The new Sheltron in my opinion is supreme to Bulwark.
08-09-2019, 04:19 AM
Marc-Vigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saeno

Because it is tied to auto attacks. If you cannot actually hit something, you do not gain gauge with then halts your Sheltron "recast". This is what the original post mentioned.

So you're going to ignore the benefits of the other tank healing abilities because in your opinion the damage they deal is irrelevant and the only thing that matters is just tanking. That seems very silly to just ignore free healing that you receive by simply doing damage. In that case, PLD is actually one of the best healers in the game because when they Requiestcat, they can heal 5 times in a row for 1800 potency each heal. Who needs Confiteor anyways?

Losing DPS in order to heal is a very serious trade off. Justify it however you like but there is a real cost to Clemency. Just look at the front page for the thread where the healer is complaining at PLD's for using Clemency. If it is not needed it is a DPS loss and no one benefits from a DPS loss. if it is needed then absolutely you should take the DPS loss because it might end up being a DPS gain if someone lives. Weather or not the receiver actually needed that heal is anyone's debate.

You can use Superbolide twice in Eden Prime. You can Hallowed ground only a single time in Eden Prime. Does that make Hallowed bad or Superbolide good? Not really because you do two Superbolides and one Hallowed and leave it at that. Point is, one is not better than the other. They both have their strengths and weaknesses and that's what keeps them balanced. I did not claim Superbolide to be better, rather it is competitive with Hallowed.

What I asked for is for PLD to be able to recharge their Sheltron just like how the other tanks can recharge their short CD's during downtime. Im not asking for a completely brand new cooldown. Im asking to have Sheltron when the other tanks have their short CD after downtime.

Seeing as you only care about DPS and don't understand what tanks are here for, I think you should consider playing another role. And by the way, PLD is top 2 DPS for all 4 tanks, only SLIGHTLY behind GNB which has much less utility and survivability.

Superbolide is absolute garbage compared to Hollowed Ground, doesn't matter if you can use it once or twice, it puts an insane amount of stress on your healers and it requires perfect timing, whilst Hollow Ground has no downside. I would gladly trade 60 seconds of a longer cooldown for a much better immunity.

And there you go again not being honest, you never said you wanted Sheltron to be like Raw Intuition (and that wouldn't be viable because then oath gauge would be pointless). You complained about not being able to fill your gauge during downtime using other tanks as example. "Please consider giving PLD a way to generate Oath gauge outside of auto attacks."
08-09-2019, 12:41 PM
Saeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Seeing as you only care about DPS and don't understand what tanks are here for, I think you should consider playing another role. And by the way, PLD is top 2 DPS for all 4 tanks, only SLIGHTLY behind GNB which has much less utility and survivability.

Why are you so irate? I dont think I offended you in any way. Regardless, the change I suggest has nothing to do with damage potencies, rather, it is a minor change to allow for more mitigation. I hope you see the irony in your stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Superbolide is absolute garbage compared to Hollowed Ground, doesn't matter if you can use it once or twice, it puts an insane amount of stress on your healers and it requires perfect timing, whilst Hollow Ground has no downside. I would gladly trade 60 seconds of a longer cooldown for a much better immunity.

That's a great opinion. If you dont like the trade off, play PLD since you clearly prefer Hallowed over Superbolide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

And there you go again not being honest, you never said you wanted Sheltron to be like Raw Intuition (and that wouldn't be viable because then oath gauge would be pointless). You complained about not being able to fill your gauge during downtime using other tanks as example. "Please consider giving PLD a way to generate Oath gauge outside of auto attacks."

Do you even know what you're arguing for at this point? None of your points make sense.
08-09-2019, 01:36 PM
Marc-Vigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saeno

Why are you so irate? I dont think I offended you in any way. Regardless, the change I suggest has nothing to do with damage potencies, rather, it is a minor change to allow for more mitigation. I hope you see the irony in your stance.

That's a great opinion. If you dont like the trade off, play PLD since you clearly prefer Hallowed over Superbolide.

Do you even know what you're arguing for at this point? None of your points make sense.

You didn't offend me in any way, nor I did intend to offend you.

About Superbolide, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, and no I won't play PLD because I don't like it, I preffer GNB playstyle even though it has a much weaker immunity. If you think Superbolide so good, go play GNB urself.

First you say that during a very specific raid there is downtime and you don't like that so you wanna be able to fill your gauge without a target (lol), then you talk about Raw Intuition and similar skills as if they were what you desire because you said you don't want more buttons, then you started comparing Soul Eater and other weaker healing skills to Clemency (wtf) which is the most overpowered tank skill ever, along with Hollowed Ground.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, all you see is your own selfish view of a very specific moment you didn't enjoy and then you try to argue why your already ovepowered job should get a buff.

I'm done with this topic.
08-09-2019, 02:08 PM
AbyssDarks

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

You didn't offend me in any way, nor I did intend to offend you.

About Superbolide, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, and no I won't play PLD because I don't like it, I preffer GNB playstyle even though it has a much weaker immunity. If you think Superbolide so good, go play GNB urself.

First you say that during a very specific raid there is downtime and you don't like that so you wanna be able to fill your gauge without a target (lol), then you talk about Raw Intuition and similar skills as if they were what you desire because you said you don't want more buttons, then you started comparing Soul Eater and other weaker healing skills to Clemency (wtf) which is the most overpowered tank skill ever, along with Hollowed Ground.

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, all you see is your own selfish view of a very specific moment you didn't enjoy and then you try to argue why your already ovepowered job should get a buff.

I'm done with this topic.

You seem like youre getting a bit heated, honestly...

I think the main point was, all tanks can start with their short CD mitigation except PLD. If thats fair? Debatable. PLD has 1 less mitigation, but more party utility. I could see it going either way, and wouldnt mind seeing PLD gauge auto-fill to 50 when out of combat. On the flip-side, you get a shelltron every 21 seconds, while I get a heart of stone every 25 seconds. Now Ill always have a heart, you might use your gauge on something besides shell. There are tons of back and forths in this debate, and I doubt allowing a PLD to start with 50 gauge would break the class.

I dont think superbolide is bad, personally. If a healer cant get me to full in 8 seconds without stressing out, I think my party has bigger problems. And with the lower CD, I see it being pretty fine compared to HG.

WAR and DRK are much more stressful on healers, seeing as you can still take damage during your immunity. Especially DRK, if you arent a WHM with benny up.
08-09-2019, 02:09 PM
IntrovertAnt

PLD oath generation is fine.

If you want oath for shelltron during Eden adds just save enough for 50 before the boss disappears.

As for not starting with oath gauge, it's not a big deal to not have shelltron during the first 20 seconds of a fight. You've got other tools to use if you really need them. Hell you could even PoA if there is a tank buster within the first 20 seconds and PoA would prob be up in time for you to use again when you need.
08-09-2019, 11:26 PM
CaTi

As AbyssDarks says. OP’s suggestion doesn’t exactly make PLD substantially better, nor does the current absence of downtime (and/or out-of-combat) Oath Generation significantly impair the job.

It’s simply a nice little QoL suggestion made more pertinent by say... E1 right now.

I for one would like them to make block/parry effective on critical hits because awareness is gone. :)
08-10-2019, 08:17 AM
Saeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

You didn't offend me in any way, nor I did intend to offend you.

About Superbolide, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, and no I won't play PLD because I don't like it, I preffer GNB playstyle even though it has a much weaker immunity. If you think Superbolide so good, go play GNB urself.

The sheer arrogance of your post is almost unreal. To state an opinion as solid fact and then close out any criticism is willful arrogance and nothing but.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

First you say that during a very specific raid there is downtime and you don't like that so you wanna be able to fill your gauge without a target (lol), then you talk about Raw Intuition and similar skills as if they were what you desire because you said you don't want more buttons, then you started comparing Soul Eater and other weaker healing skills to Clemency (wtf) which is the most overpowered tank skill ever, along with Hollowed Ground.

Of course I need to bring up the other skills because I would need to make comparisons to make an argument. There is no point in asking for a change without at least providing context, similarities, differences etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

Im taking into consideration what other tanks have because you are doing the same, your argument to demand a gauge filler is that other tanks have it. You said "other tanks already have ways to heal themselves with things like Soul eater, Brutal Shell, Equilibrium, Path." That is absolutely false.

- Soul Eater = 300 potency, requires vulnerable target, and it's a combo finisher, so 5 seconds total to cast. ---> VS Clemency = 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Brutal Shell = 300 total potency (150 heal+150 shield), requires vulnerable target, 2nd hit combo so 2.3 sec to cast. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

- Equillibrium = 1200 potency, no target required, instant, 60 second cooldown. ---> VS Clemency 1200 potency, no target required, 1.5 sec cast, no cooldown.

Clemency is by far the best self sustain spell from all tanks, it's what allows you to finish bosses even if the whole party is dead, no other tank has such privilege. It comes at the cost of damage, yes, but tanks are not DPS, and if you are sustaining urself that means healers can DPS meanwhile, so it's not a big loss.

As for tank healing, it was literally you who brought up every single heal tanks have and compared it to clemency while closing your ears to anything that has to do with Clemency having a trade off because according to you tanks do not have a responsibility to do DPS since that is not their role. I dont know what content you do, but in any end game content, ALL roles have a responsibility to do damage. If you do not do damage as a tank, you are actively working against your party by not helping to beat the enrage. Does that mean a single clemency will make you see enrage? Absolutely not, but that also doesn't mean you get an excuse to spam clemency when it is 100% not needed.

You also brought up your ilevel 90 PLD and used your own anecdotal evidence and tried to run your personal data as hard fact without using numbers yourself. I even went ahead and gave you numbers since you asked about honest numbers in one of your earlier posts and you then twist the conversation around claiming that it is I who did these things?

Furthermore, there are MANY instances where this scenario applies. In all extreme primals, specifically titania, seiryuu, byakko, ultimates and in raids like Titan Maximum, there are long moments of downtime where you cannot gain gauge. THis game is known for having these pause periods where you cannot hit the boss because the boss is doing some sort of super move.

I probably should not have argued with you when you tried to use evidence from an ilevel 90 PLD but I still gave you the respect. The fact that you can't do the same is telling of your character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc-Vigar

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, all you see is your own selfish view of a very specific moment you didn't enjoy and then you try to argue why your already ovepowered job should get a buff.

Im done with this topic

Now there is that irate behavior I mentioned earlier. You make a counter point, completely refuse to listen to the opposing side and then insult others only to abandon the thread when you're not getting your way.
08-10-2019, 08:20 AM
Saeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaTi

As AbyssDarks says. OP’s suggestion doesn’t exactly make PLD substantially better, nor does the current absence of downtime (and/or out-of-combat) Oath Generation significantly impair the job.

It’s simply a nice little QoL suggestion made more pertinent by say... E1 right now.

i'd like to point out that there are more instances than just E1 where you cannot recharge your sheltron due to the enemy not being targettable. If there is one thing SE likes doing, it's not giving you a target for when the boss does their big epic aoe move. I understand you can just hold 50 gauge to have it where you need it but that feels like passing up a sheltron earlier to have it later. It's not THAT big of a deal but it does feel strange.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaTi

I for one would like them to make block/parry effective on critical hits because awareness is gone. :)

This honestly should be the case already. I dont even want to imagine the current state of PLD if bosses still had auto attack crits. All short CD tank skills work on critical hits except sheltron since blocking does not mitigate crits.
08-10-2019, 08:27 AM
Saeno

Quote:

Originally Posted by IntrovertAnt

PLD oath generation is fine.

If you want oath for shelltron during Eden adds just save enough for 50 before the boss disappears.

As for not starting with oath gauge, it's not a big deal to not have shelltron during the first 20 seconds of a fight. You've got other tools to use if you really need them. Hell you could even PoA if there is a tank buster within the first 20 seconds and PoA would prob be up in time for you to use again when you need.

That is of course the obvious solution. Passage can indeed work as a single block if need be but this also means trading off your advantage of having two raid mitigators. In some cases, you may need that passage for other aoe damage which then eliminates the possibility of using PoA as a personal CD. Also, by removing a sheltron earlier to have a sheltron later, that means you're giving up mitigation somewhere. Im not entirely sure how I feel about that, but at the same time there is no guarantee to have short CD's available for all possible tank busters across all tanks where PLD can be the one tank that can have two shetrons just 10s in between due to its shorter recast. Still, that demands no sheltron use for 40-44 seconds in order to have that much gauge on standby.

All of these are things that are something you optimize during a fight of course. By allowing for the PLD to generate gauge slightly during downtime this does lessen the need to optimize gauge when first learning encounters or learning where to place mitigation since more is now available in the form of either sheltron, cover or intervention.

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