Do you mean a WHM hitting 35k DPS in Akademia pulls with one button? Doing the DPS equivalent of an RDM wearing 410 set just by spamming Glare? You mean a WHM who can top charts in the right pulls thanks to HOLY GAWD, or throw out occasional flat 44k Afflatus, up to 75k crit?Quote:
no DPS-minded player is going to want to play a role that hits like a wet noodle (and that includes current WHM)
Cool, glad we cleared that up. I now realize that being 20% overall on damage quite consistently and never being too far behind some DPS (aside from single-target vs those with full tome-gear who are playing at least semi-optimally) is akin to a good ole wet noodle.
[NOTE: I get what you're saying - levelling up, not having TEH DAMAGEZ and/or not having much to press], but just be careful how you word it. WHM right now is absolutely no slouch later, so such comments apply to pre-SHB for the most part. At least until/unless it gets nerfed].
Who said this and can it apply to healers?
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07-14-2019, 10:37 PMRopeDrink
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07-14-2019, 11:39 PM347SPECTREThat's the thing, they don't factor in healer damage when designing content. Healer damage is considered a bonus by the dev team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zfz
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07-15-2019, 02:28 AMGeminaTanks are also complaining about the simplicity of their kits, but one thing we need to get straight is that a tank might be a tank that must focus on keeping mob aggression on themselves, but they are also melee fighters. Causing damage is not only a natural part of their role, it is also a form of building enmity, so it is extremely important that they cause damage and a lot of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO
Healing is different, and not comparable to tanking. Tanks don't have to turn their attention away from causing damage in order to perform their primary function. This is even more true with 5.0 changes, but has always been true with the existing meta. Healers OTOH, have to stop causing damage in order to perform their primary role.
The healing community just might be the most diverse of the three roles. I also think it's the role that can be designed all sorts of ways and still work because the only thing that matters with them is that they can meet the healing requirements of any particular encounter. Whether or not the devs have designed tanks to conform to a 'tank's fantasy' I cannot say, but with healing they are dealing not only with a lot of varied expectations, they are also trying to blend all of that in with their own idea of how they want healers to play. All of it is a pool of clash, and no harmony to be found anywhere.Quote:
But the devs recognise that tank's fantasy is that of the warrior in shining armour with a giant weapon who stands between the enemy and his allies. but for some reason they can't accept the vision of a combat healer or battle tactician who uses magic/wits to both protect their allies and ruin their foes.
The majority of DPS jobs have very limited self heals. Is this notion absurd because their role is DPS? No one is pushing for more self heals on DPS jobs though. Why do you suppose that is? Despite that DPS jobs have less survivability than healers or tanks? Is it simply GCDs not spent on damage = less damage?Quote:
The notion that healers should accept having literally 3 attack skills that they spam ad nauseaum as filler 'because their role is healing' is absurd, and I for one won't stand for it. I've been SCH main since 2.0 early access but that ended with ShB, the new DPS rotation bores me beyond tears.
Glare is readily available with 300 potency at the cost of one GCD or one button press. I play melee DPS jobs, and I don't have anything like that. That doesn't mean Glare makes WHM better at DPSing. What it does mean is that DPS skills are consolidated for healers. Instead of 1-2-3. That hits with 100pot, then 200pot, then finally 300pot; they just get the final string in a combo and call it a day. The same is true for their AoE and DoT.
In short, healer DPS kits are still functional despite their simplicity, and I think the devs are pushing for the three roles in the trinity to behave more traditionally. This basically means that if you want a more complex DPS rotation and see big numbers, then play a DPS job. I know that's dismissive, but I also get their reasoning behind it. -
07-15-2019, 03:42 AMLegoTechnicExcept we know that isn't really true, because for years we had the various "tank stances" that nerfed tank DPS for increased enmity and mitigation. And what was the player response? To not use it and just tank without tank stance the moment it because feasible, because additional DPS made the fight go quicker and who cares if the healer has to work harder, right? If a tank can keep the aggro with DPS rotation then why use tank stance if you could push the big numbers? It's very similar to the healers mindset, where once they hit the point that additional heals aren't needed, they squeeze in more DPS because it speeds things up. It is further contributing with your spare resources despite your primary goal being already accomplished.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Your point about DPS consolidation is spot on, though. Healer DPS is not meant to be complicated, and it never was. Anyone who tells you it was difficult is either lying to themselves, or still suffering from PTSD from mistimed use of Cleric Stance (and I do miss CS). It's meant to be simple because it's something you not only have to squeeze in between heals, but for leveling on the field and with the various DPS checks within story encounters. It has to be serviceable, but not proc-watch-city like actual DPS classes since the role's focus is different. -
07-15-2019, 04:45 AMConnor
Honestly I don’t get why everyone wants healers to have DPS rotations. I’d rather have ways to support the party; the saying has been worn to death but if I wanted an engaging DPS rotation I’d play a DPS.
Why is nobody acknowledging that it’s possible to contribute to a party in an RPG game without directly attacking the enemy lol. They could literally add a new role skill tomorrow that increases the targets damage for like 30 seconds, balance it to contribute equal raid DPS, there. Now literally every type of healer is happy, pure healers can heal and support, green dps can DPS and heal with oGCD or whatever.
Surely having a variety is better than just a single type? Why does every healer need to be a heavy DPS machine? Can’t we have a healer that does DPS and one that doesn’t? I don’t think the game design is so absolutely rigid that this would be impossible
All I ever see these days is people complaining about healers being so homogenised, then in the same breath asking for healer dps to become more homogenised (e.g moar buttons, moar oGCD attacks, higher potency oGCD heals for longer DPS uptime) -
07-15-2019, 04:57 AMLegoTechnicThe main reason is that you are expected to be able to DPS for solo content. This is actually one of the main points of the healer class quests; even the Shadowbringer chain starts with you killing a bear. Ergo all healers must have a viable DPS kit. Buffing alternatives are always appreciated, and AST was literally designed around the idea, but one of the WHM class tenets is to make them a Pure Healer, and as long as that imbalance remains buffs can't be too versatile and must be synced so that their effect doesn't grossly outweigh the personal contribution of the WHM or there won't be "balance".Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
And honestly none of that should really matter, because it only comes into play in progression races. Previously every class combo could technically clear content, but there's a tendency to "slave to meta" because people try to categorize their advantages for efficiency, and this tends to lead to class bias that focuses on narrow aspects as opposed to complete packages. -
07-15-2019, 05:02 AMADVSSThey wouldnt, Ever. Not for this version. The original concept of 14? Wouldve probably gone that route. Not that they couldnt do this, Potd and HoH operate this way, till you get to the mad tier floors of course. It would be interesting, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabooa
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07-15-2019, 05:07 AMShyluv
I'd be fine with them adding a healer job that heals while doing DPS. Though that seems like it would be difficult to balance.
But I hate the idea of making every healer more DPS focused. Just like I don't really like that they made every healer, healing focused. I would much prefer the SCH have all of its dots and everything, like before. WHM is good as it is now. And AST have the old card system back. But then there's that same problem where if something isn't in meta because of what it specializes in, you are strongly 'encouraged' to play meta.
And, if I wanted to be more DPS focused, I would just play DPS. I do already DPS as often as I feel I can get away with. I don't need a rotation to trip over. I'm much better at assessing the battle and reacting to it, than I am with mechanical skill. I would have to quit playing. Not choose to. Have to. -
07-15-2019, 05:47 AMUrthdiggerThe reason people ask for DPS rotations is because is something that ALWAYS helps a party. Once you hit a certain amount of healing (Matching the incoming damage), more healing is, quite frankly, unnecessary. You say "Why can't we have a healer that does damage and one that does not, that'd please everyone!" Except... it wouldn't. There's two ways it can go: Either the DPS healer does not have the ability to keep the party healed through content, and thus is useless to bring along, or you have both healers perfectly able to handle the healing part and have a choice between dealing more damage, or one that doesn't. Obviously you pick the one that helps more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
Also, your role action idea literally doesn't help. Sure, you go ahead and toss that onto a player and... then what? It's already up, you can't keep spamming it, that doesn't help. And you say "Oh, healers can use this to help support the party while green DPS can DPS and use oGCD heals" except obviously the DPS healers aren't going to just not use this. They'll support the party, heal them, AND DPS.
I'm all for adding ways to support the party when healing isn't required outside of direct damage, but it has to be something that meaningfully helps the party, and isn't prone to downtime itself. Unfortunately, "pure healers" often haven't even tried to optimize their play. It's not enough to say "Oh, we'll give you AN option to support the party," it needs to be an effective one. And really, the only "effective" options I ever see suggested are DPS rotations in all but who you target. -
07-15-2019, 06:40 AMGeminaHaha! I know, I know. When I would bring up this exact point on DPS and Tank forums, it's like a room full of Jonah Jameson's from Spiderman would start laughing at me. We've all seen the popular GIF:Quote:
Originally Posted by LegoTechnic
https://media.giphy.com/media/13GaHvHijqFS0M/giphy.gif
I couldn't really disagree with them though, or make a valid argument that justifies allowing healer DPS over tank DPS. Even if there are some occasional situations where it happens, the consensus is that DPS and tanks should always be doing more damage than healers, which is another way of saying healers should always focus heals before damage.