WHM DPS needs to stay this high.

i don't know if it needs to be this high, but keep in mind that WHM has always had the best base dps, when he doesnt have to heal or move, and he always loses a lot more than both other healers when in actual fight.
He might be less impacted this time with the addition of the afflatus spells though, but it would be best to wait for some real fights where the healing needed isnt this low.

(I find the healing requirements on the extreme to be very, very, very low, mostly considering that we were supposed to be healing MORE than before...)

A lot of what I wanted to say has already been said. Right now sch could get a flat buff of energy drain and whm would still be safe. With that said I wouldn’t care what the penalty for getting ED back could be as it would improve gameplay by miles.

This is also a bit of a difficult topic to approach because different tiers seem to have significant different deltas between healers. More so than we’ve had in the past. I don’t know if we should chuck it up to early expansion and people not knowing how to optimize (as opposed to knowing how but not doing it well). I mean how many whm out there use the afflatus heals like 225pot dps skills in order to weave? I’m pretty sure that has only ticked for the higher tier players at this stage. People will eventually catch on.

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Originally Posted by Lagomorph

If you double my projected value chain strategem's contribution, which I think that we can agree would be a gross over representation of its contribution, whm is still far ahead. Further, I used numbers of what a high end group would pull. I'd argue that 469 dps is already an over representation of chain stratagem's contribution in the majority of scenarios.

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I agree for most groups the contribution is way less. I'd argue, however, that has already been the case in 4.x. I am pretty sure most groups would have profited more from WHM than from SCH, but that's not what the all important meta dictated.

That point is of course reinforced this addon

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Originally Posted by KokonoeAiyoko

Well this is hella biased.

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No it's not. SCH deals good DPS while being the currently strongest healer of the three and giving raid buffs on top of it all. AST also has raid buffs to account for. Them getting close to WHM DPS means that we are set back to how things were in 4.X - WHM dealing slightly more damage, but not enough to justify bringing them. It would be something else if WHM had any kind of raid buffs the other two cannot provide (e.g. a DH buff), but they don't so they need to deal shittons of DPS to compensate for that.

TC, I agree with you mostly; however, I need to point out that a decent DNC deals about 2-3k more DPS than WHM still, so it's nowhere near actual DPS numbers that we dish out, unless said dancer is horrible and you are moving in the 90+ percentile.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

I agree for most groups the contribution is way less. I'd argue, however, that has already been the case in 4.x. I am pretty sure most groups would have profited more from WHM than from SCH, but that's not what the all important meta dictated.

That point is of course reinforced this addon

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100% agree on your point about what the meta dictates. This is why I think the way to balance whm is not personal dps. It's to give them some utility too.

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Originally Posted by Lagomorph

100% agree on your point about what the meta dictates. This is why I think the way to balance whm is not personal dps. It's to give them some utility too.

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As much as I would like to give utility to WHM, that would just mean you’re homogenizing the Healer role EVEN MORE. SCH and AST got homogenized with WHM healing to balance out the healing aspect since there was such a big focus on Healer DPS last expac. We don’t need to have all three have a buff if WHM pulls far ahead in the selfish DPS category, but in regards to SCH and AST they merely need QoL changes.

SCH just needs ED back to be able to have an Aether Dump. Can even be a 100 potency oGCD for all I know and still not step on WHM’s Lilies.

AST needs the timer taken off Sleeve Draw so we don’t have this ‘rushed’ sort of feel when trying to deal out Cards before next Draw so as not to waste stacks. Increasing the Cooldown of the next Draw to 7s from 3s would also help alleviate this issue in contingency with this fix and give AST time to choose Lord/Lady/Play. Healing potencies for AST May need a look at, but we’ll need to see more of the struggle in Savage.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

As much as I would like to give utility to WHM, that would just mean you’re homogenizing the Healer role EVEN MORE. SCH and AST got homogenized with WHM healing to balance out the healing aspect since there was such a big focus on Healer DPS last expac. We don’t need to have all three have a buff if WHM pulls far ahead in the selfish DPS category, but in regards to SCH and AST they merely need QoL changes.

SCH just needs ED back to be able to have an Aether Dump. Can even be a 100 potency oGCD for all I know and still not step on WHM’s Lilies.

AST needs the timer taken off Sleeve Draw so we don’t have this ‘rushed’ sort of feel when trying to deal out Cards before next Draw so as not to waste stacks. Increasing the Cooldown of the next Draw to 7s from 3s would also help alleviate this issue in contingency with this fix and give AST time to choose Lord/Lady/Play. Healing potencies for AST May need a look at, but we’ll need to see more of the struggle in Savage.

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I do understand the sentiment, and I dislike homogenization too, but I'm pretty convinced it's impossible to balance whm based on tweaking their dps numbers alone. On one end of the spectrum whm viable at a competitive level, while also completely broken in a casual setting. On the other end, whm is balanced in a casual environment and miles behind the other healers in a high end raid group. I think that this type (giving whm utility) of homogenization is healthy for the game. What the developers did to healers in 5.0 is most certainly not. In 5.0 the developers tried to homogenize healing toolkits and dps rotations. What did it accomplish? Literally all it did was push ast out of the meta, bring whm into the meta, and make healer mains quit the role. There was no balance achieved here. In one interview yoshi p said, in regards to some classes losing their identity, "the goal is a noble one: total job balance across the board and 100% viability no matter how difficult the content is." I think nearly everyone can agree that this goal has been failed miserably in the department of healer balance. In fact, I'd go as far as to say as many changes could be reverted such as giving ast back the old card system and making base eos less useless if whm was giving some sort of raid utility, and healer balance would be a lot easier to achieve while the homogenization that healers are feeling would be far less severe.

Source of the interview I cited, in case anyone is curious: https://twinfinite.net/2019/05/ffxiv...ers-interview/

I think I'd be okay with let's say WHM being the high dps healer and AST being the low dps healer if like, AST brought more to the table to make up the healing/dps difference than a 6% damage buff, but right now WHM just seems so flatly better at everything over the other two healers that it's hard not to look at them as overpowered by comparison.

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Originally Posted by Yuyuka3

No it's not. SCH deals good DPS while being the currently strongest healer of the three and giving raid buffs on top of it all..

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WHM is the strongest healer of the three, by about 3% at the median and about 8% at the top, not SCH.

"better at everything over the other two healers" is quite the over statement.

In this extension, the only thing WHM gained was dps in various forms (afflatus arent really "new" spells, more like swiftcast cure II and swiftcast medica, and one giant boom dps spell, but all 3 of them help maintaining dps as long as you dont use other GCD), he still doesnt have utility.
And remember that WHM best healing skills are GCDs, regen, medica II, cure III, that doesnt have, like the afflatus skills, dps counterpart with the lillies.
It may not be apparent now since the fight's healing requirement are so damn low, but you'll see changes as soon as WHM will have to go back to using these skills. (and, to be honest, if he doesnt, that mean most of the raid can be solo healed)
I havent looked at all the new spell SCH won, but i'm still amazed at how powerfull sacred soil has become in terms of healing, and i dont understand the logic behind it:
AST lost his potency on CU, while not being able to extend it, and SCH on the other hand gains a 100 potency HoT on his sacred soil, with 15s duration, that is usable every 30s as OGCD.
I'm not even counting the new fairy spells, but i'm pretty sure he is far from being worse than any of the other two healer in the healing department.
He might even go back to being first dps if the healing requirement goes up, just because he has so many OGCD for healing, unless he switch to being the one that does most the healing while having a decent to good dps.