ToS Question on Discord Bots, etc.

You’re thinking way to hard about this.

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Originally Posted by bgd624624

I've played FFXIV on and off for years and greatly enjoy the game. However, I've typically played solo as each time I join an FC/discord/LC I find an a la carte, all you can eat buffet of 3rd party tools that violate the ToS, sites that use those tools, discord bots that datamine, how-to exploits, in-game bots for gathering, PvP, pretty much everything, adult client mods, etc.

• I understand that this is an MMORPG and is unavoidable.
• I understand that SE has an extremely restrictive ToS.
• I understand that SE looks the other way and that you can "get away with it."

When I play a game, I abide by the ToS out of a sense of honor and integrity, even if I do not agree with parts of it. If something is against a game's ToS, and you break it, you are cheating. This isn't subjective. It seems here the community consensus is "something is okay because SE can't find out or won't take action and it is SEs fault anyway not mine."

My experience thus far:

1. Joined an FC and typical I parse this, I rank this. I've played MMORPGs for a long time, and FFXIV as well. I'm confident in my rotations and know my fights. I don't need to cheat to be a good player. In other games this is not cheating, in this game, it is. If someone mentions parsing, I report them.
   
2. Joined a Novice Network LS and a mentor on it linked to novice discord. It was like the dark web of FFXIV. Bots, DPS meters, mods (that were just plain gross), etc.
   
3. Joined an RP discord. I mean you want to avoid this stuff, go RP right? Nope. Bots that poll sites which collect parsing information to decide who to raid with. So much for RP.

Is it possible to play this game with others and not violate the ToS, directly or indirectly? At this point, I'm about to throw in the towel and move on. I've loved the lore and story lines, but you can't play a game like this completely alone, it gets old fast. My last attempt was okay, I'll RP I love to RP. But even that seems to be a no go. I think when a game makes a restrictive ToS but then doesn't enforce it, this situation develops. Finally, is all I'm saying allowed? I mean can you have discord bots and DPS meters and that's considered "okay?" Understand, I'm not against the tools themselves and IMHO much of this should be allowed. What I won't do is use them or partake in a community that does the same.

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Yeah, you can have discord bots and talk about parses in discord. It's outside of the game. You're thinking way too hard about this. You have to keep in mind that all of these discords are not run by SE, they're going to have all sorts of content on them. Square cannot, and should not police them. "Honor and integrity" LOL

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Originally Posted by bgd624624

If a community has a discord server, and that server is running a bot that say, data mines FFXIV the results are displayed in discord of course and that's outside of SE's world. However the bot itself is connecting to FFXIV to obtain that data. That portion interacts directly. I guess my question is, is it okay to do this? If I am on a discord server, can I make use of a discord bot that collects data from the game (game time, hunts, weather, etc.). My thought is no, I can't because that's basically an unauthorized client.

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It's in the realm of parsing in that so long as it doesn't directly affect the gameplay of others in a negative way (i.e. harassing about damage meters), then there shouldn't be any problem.

That's funny, my own FC's just enacted a rule basically stating "you are not to parse and reveal anybody's performance without their express consent" essentially saying "Look, we know you guys are going to do this, just don't go around talking about it unless somebody actually asks for help with their class"

No links to such things in our Discord either.

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

That's funny, my own FC's just enacted a rule basically stating "you are not to parse and reveal anybody's performance without their express consent" essentially saying "Look, we know you guys are going to do this, just don't go around talking about it unless somebody actually asks for help with their class"

No links to such things in our Discord either.

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here's the thing, everyone should want help with their class. you want to get better at the game. when did getting better at the game become such a taboo idea?

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Originally Posted by bgd624624

Is it possible to play this game with others and not violate the ToS, directly or indirectly?

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If you use the market board at all, you're very likely playing with dirty gil.
RMT is no joke and if you want to get to nitpicking, they've dirtied the economy to such an extent, across most servers, there's no way to even make a transaction unless you stick to selling things to NPCs.

That being said I don't endorse RMT, and have removed known buyers from my FC. It's a terrible practice.
But to answer your question directly and bluntly: No. It is not possible to play this game with others and not violate the ToS, directly or indirectly.

I don't think it's possible to play with the level of puritanism you want, you admit you have a black and white view of the ToS, but the majority don't view it that way, not even the GMs view it that way cos they let a looot of things slide, perhaps you should relax those standards if this is affecting your enjoyment.

The only rules that matter are having fun and not impacting someone else's gameplay negatively. Nearly all forms of automation will impact someone else negatively even if just by messing up the economy, but personal parses? data mining? mods? No one is being harmed. Just don't be a dick and don't try to gain unfair advantage over other people and you should be fine, everything else doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by Racen

here's the thing, everyone should want help with their class. you want to get better at the game. when did getting better at the game become such a taboo idea?

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There's several areas of thought on this.

- Some people view going deep into the mechanics as the game as "turning it into a job" and refuse to do that with their hobby. I have a similar mindset myself which is why I won't raid, so I sort of "get it"
- Some people have been demeaned by those who misuse parsing as a means to tear down others, so the idea of it leaves a bad taste in their mouth.
- Just as some people are bad at the game, there are still others who have no business teaching but do it anyway. They do it in a manner they think is "helpful" without taking into account how it might be received. But they're so bad at it they don't realize it.
- Dunning-Kruger effect: You're so bad at either doing your class or teaching somebody else you don't realize how bad you actually are and will likely ignore outside input because you think "you're fine"

Thing is, people ignore raw data all the time - just look at today's contriversy's regarding climate change or even vaccinations. The data is there - but people choose to ignore it.

As far as I'm concerned, I believe it's polite to ask first if people want advice. If they won't take it, then move on. If it's your PF group, you are well within your rights at that point to kick them out. If it's a DF - tough luck, you either try to carry them or eat the penalty and move on.

There are discord bots that allow one to bot gather?

Or are you talking about discord bots that show gather times / slots? That's not datamining the game so much as accessing publicly available information from websites like Garlandbell. So is any bot that accesses Lodestone.

Here's the thing. There will be no point Square Enix kicks down Discord's door and starts mass banning everybody who's in a discord with an Aymeric bot. There will be no point that they start accepting Discord-linked screenshots and images as evidence of ToS abuse, as they've already stated such things can be doctored.

I do have to ask: what makes parsing "cheating" in this game where it's not cheating in other games?

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Originally Posted by Racen

here's the thing, everyone should want help with their class. you want to get better at the game. when did getting better at the game become such a taboo idea?

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It's a thing among the "you dont pay my sub" crowd.

Willful ignorance lets people think they're doing perfectly fine, and anything that would shatter that illusion CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO STAND!