I think the quote from the interview with Yoshida about Gunbreaker is somewhat relevant for this thread:
I think the first answer is the most interesting, as it talks about MT/OT and Tank Stances. The latter being a particularly notable topic due to the whole thing in regards to "Tank stances suck" thing were you're incentivised to not use them whenever possible.Quote:
Q: Right now, the three tanks are well-balanced. What will happen when you throw another job into the mix? Can you tell us roughly what Gunbreaker's special characteristics will be?
A: Honestly, please wait until May for the answer. We'll show you how the four tanks will differentiate themselves, including their new actions. We've had three tanks up to Patch 4.5, and we see tank players' preferences with regards to MTing, OTing, tank stances, etc. I don't think it'd be good for the three tanks to form a "triangle", so maybe we'll balance them by having two MTs and two OTs, or make them capable of both. Right now, we're working towards a compromise as we adjust the actions. We'll announce the battle system details in May, so please wait until then.
Q: You announced that Gunbreaker would involve "pulling the trigger the moment you slash the enemy" as its battle style. Is that a command input or some kind of setting?
A: If we make the player pull the trigger every time, then controller players will get tendonitis *laughs* We plan to show it graphically, with actions that'll let you feel like you're experiencing it. We always emphasize a different game experience based on each job's base concept, so Gunbreaker will be released with its own job system as well. That will be revealed along with the battle actions in May.
To be honest, it was only the other day that I was thinking about what if not all the tanks had 2 distinct "Tank" and "DPS (Or in DRK's case, Non)" stances. Either allowing more than 2 stances or removing them entirely.
For example, PLD getting another DPS stance that let them deal AoE damage so they have the option for defence, ST damage or AoE damage boosts. With potential for DRK to have Grit removed and baked into their class (With the damage penalty and enmity boost readjusted to compensate)
Though, my concern from this answer is the consideration of making 2 Tanks the designated MT's and 2 the designated OT's. I feel that would be a huge step backwards if you finally add in a 4th tank to only then rebalance them so you only have 2 options depending on which role you're playing...
Hopefully they do manage to make their compromise and get all 4 tanks to be viable in both MT and OT roles.
Meanwhile, the second answer suggests an overhaul for Dark Arts, given the joke about tendinitis from having to repeatedly spam a button for each attack (Which is essentially the case with the current implementation)
Though, the flip side is the reference to Gunbreaker having a "Different game experience" suggesting that it might work differently BECAUSE of Dark Arts being the spam for every attack skill...
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02-05-2019, 09:58 PMKalise
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02-05-2019, 10:37 PMshao32
im glad they finally notice our complains about tank stances and do something about it in shadowbringers, and about designate 2 MT and 2 OT well, at a balance standpoint its good to keep it balance without much work, but first we have to know what means beins MT and OT for then, if its works well i don't have a problem with that.
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02-06-2019, 12:15 AMMycow8me
TBN would work extremely well in tandem with an HP sacrifice skill or attack, give us a reason to use it outside of normal usage. Honestly I think next expansion will see a reliable DRK self heal but stranger things have happened... looking at you wars.
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02-06-2019, 06:44 AMIzsha
They cant hard into "you 2 are MTs. You 2 are OTs." Simply because of 4 man, 24man and any other situation with 1 tank per party. They really need to stick with all tanks can main and OT.
I'm glad they at least noticed some of the big tank concerns though and are taking them into account. But that doesnt always go well (xenos and his stupid war crit rng QQ club dismantling war play comes to mind).
No triangles. Good. All mt/ot capable. Good. Tank stance adjustments. Good. -
02-06-2019, 03:39 PMPhoenicia
We already do have a MT and OT preference. And as Yoshi-P said, the triangle already exists. It plays a major part to why tanks are balanced. MT preference is as follows:
Warrior > Dark Knight > Paladin.
It means WAR with any other tank WAR is "MT".
Dark Knight is "OT" if partnered with WAR, "MT" if partnered with PLD.
PLD is always OT unless partnered with another paladin. But if you have 2 paladins you probably don't care about what advantages a class brings.
So if you want to always be MT, play WAR. If you want to always OT, play PLD. DRK is so edgy it can do both (and some players pigeonhole themselves into either "role" by specifying their partner class).
The whole concept of MT/OT is moot anyways. It does not exist, it hasn't since final coil (and Titan Extreme to an extent) beyond who pulls the boss first. Most fights with 2 tanks has both tanks take equal amounts of damage (actually a lot of fights have the OT take more more damage, O6S being the most recent one).
Tank "balance" really comes down to what DPS they can bring and how their toolkits serve said DPS. Right now people prefer WAR MT because their pull is a literal 0 DPS loss, high enmity and DPS, seamless stance swapping and extremely short defencive cool downs with good uptime so they can keep dishing out their damage without being hampered by damage intake. DRK is not that far behind in terms of snap aggro and CDs. Each time a PLD pulls a squirrel died of cancer though. -
02-06-2019, 04:50 PMIzsha
The tank "preferences" are just players playing tanks optimally. Plds dont play pld because they like to OT. The entire fantasy of a pld is ye olde sword n board. Plds used to be the preferred Mr because war was bad at it. Now war is preferred mt because it's better at it. Drk was preferred mt in hw because it was better at it.
How players play tanks and how players WANT to play are not the same thing. Making every tank capable of pulling and tanking is a requirement to let people actually play how they WANT to.
The triangle is not something to desired. Its a stain to be removed. Pld absolutely should be capable of pulling but it isnt. War should have something to do in the OT position, but it doesn't. In this way, both should actually be closer to drk. Drk can adequately mt or ot. This is not some unicorn dream in job design. The worst tank in the game can do it. If drks can straddle the line properly so should everyone else. -
02-06-2019, 05:56 PMGeminaI think it's ok for jobs within a role to have an advantage/disadvantage to each other. It makes them unique. If WAR is the preferred MT, PLD the OT, and DRK the switch hitter, then each of them have a niche and also an identity amongst themselves. MT/OT and swapping between both can also be referred to as the playstyles a person playing tank prefers, and I think it's kind of neat if a tank is designed in a way to conform to certain playstyles so long as it can perform well in all duties.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Nothing is denying you from playing how you want to this way. You have three and soon to be four tanks to choose from, and having them all leveled makes you a more versatile tank overall if it is the role you main and want to take into high-end duties. Just focus on the one you enjoy the most first when it comes to obtaining a BiS weapon. -
02-06-2019, 07:11 PMPhoeniciaThere is one way to make all tanks equally good at MT and OT, it is making them all DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Giving advantages and disadvantages is one of the best way to "balance" jobs without making them all the same. Currently all 3 tanks have a clear advantage, clear disadvantage and opportunity costs.
Since 2.1, WAR has always had the advantage best personal "mitigation" due to very high availability and uptime, but part of this mitigation is locked behind a tank stance you don't want to sit in and comes at the cost of replacing fell cleaves, heck War can throw so many CDs at single abilities because they can. Its utility is offensive (slashing and insane enmity burst), and later on Shake it Off was added. It is how the job is balanced. By the way, WAR beimg preferred OT in Heavenward wasn't because it was a worse MT, it was still the best at it, it was because the other two sucked at OTing because of TP issues and lower DPS than their MT DPS from the OT spot while WAR provided all its toys from either position.
Advantage: Burst DPS and enmity. 0 reliance on group setup.
Opportunity costs: Mitigation via Inner Beast VS burst or damage is locked behind stances.
Disadvantage: Little to do to help current main tank from the subtank spot. Does not benefit from meta buffs like Battle Litany, Battle Voice and Chain Strategim and misaligns misaligned with Trick Attack.
PLD on the other hand has very high burst mitigation with years worth of down time. So instead of throwing 2 or 3 abilities at one buster, PLD can survive nasty things with 1 button. The downtime, lack of actual snap aggro, and abilities like cover and intervention pushes the PLD to the "best OT" spot.
Please note that PLD never was the best MT, people just had it MT in 2.0 because we only had it, and continued to have it MT because they thought shield and hallowed ground = best tank. In HW PLD sustained its TP with shield swipe so after a War pulls, people had it provoke and MT. It also was an awkward OT because Savage Blade being in it Royal Authority combo caused aggro issues (hilarious if you think about it, the tank with worst snap aggro causes aggro issues when off tanking). And the lack of shield swipe made it run flat out of TP in 2 minutes 30 seconds.
Advantages: Sustained DPS with 2 reversable mini burst windows, benefits from all raid buffs. Excellent raid wide mitigation. Excellent current tank support.
Opportunity Costs: High personal burst mitigation VS high cooldowns. You really want a good CD rotation.
Disadvantages: Weak snap enmity tools. Shelton relies in gear and does not work on critical and multi-hit attacks.
Since its release, DRK has been in many awkward spots. Whoch have been fixed gradually. In HW people let it tank because it "gained" DPS (via Blood price which worked out of Grit and Reprisal which also provided raid mitigation) despite having a HUGE gap in its auto attack mitigation compare the other two. Thank goodness it was fixed in SB. It also suffered from the PLD's issue of long main CD (shadow wall being 3 minutes)but that was mitigation with Dark Mind in magical damage situation (was still bad against Physical TBs and over all auto attack mitigation as you end up saving Ramparts/Shadowskin for TBs instead of mitigating autos like a WAR could), this was also fixed in SB. Snap enmity came at a DPS cost too! But it is so high that the price paid in DPS is worth it. Dark Mind, Dark Passenger and TBN costing the same MP as DA yet proved to be a DPS loss caused unhealthy game play all of which were fixed in 4.3. Currently DRK stands in a very good middle grounds.
Advantages: High bust and sustained DPS. Decent personal mitigation thanks to relatively short CDs and TBN. Can support the MT with TBN (though weaker than what PLD provides).
Opportunity Costs: DRK's completely maliable burst and sustained DPS allows it to line up with any group setup, but completely relies on others providing it with damage buffs (including slashing). TBN is "damage capped", it only blocks up to 20% (10%) of DRK's health making it weaker than Inner Beast, and depending on what is blocked, weaker or stronger than Shelton.
Disadvantages: Provides no raid wide mitigation. Not really "best" at anything.
TL:DR; having clear advantages and disadvantages is a good way of balancing classes. It does come with its own problems, like how it pigeonholes jobs into roles. But if done right (like the case of current DRK) it is great.
However, what I am understanding from Yoshi-P's answers, to break the main issue of the current balance problems in FFXIV, instead of having a triangle (soon to be square/circle) where you have an order from best to worst, they want to have a synergy (or missynergy) between the tanks so if you have say WAR you want PLD because they supplement each other really well. Inversely in case of missynergy if you have a WAR you don't want a PLD and want either of the other two, the the balancing factor will be that no tank would be the absolute best that you solidify it and it's partner permenantly (like how BRD is so demanded that it solidified DRG in the meta). -
02-07-2019, 12:06 AMIzsha
Half of your examples arent an advantage or disadvantage. Just a job design. War using multiple weak CDs and pld using single strong cds isnt abn advantage ie disadvantage. It is a playstyle and neither one promotes MT or OT, especially when you consider the shield covers fluff mitigation while war would use an actual CD for that effect. Burst damage vs sustained damage? Has no bearing on being a mt or ot.
You can keep all of those differences without shoehorning tanks into specific positions. War can still be a burst damage tank that focuses on ho (classic barbarian style) while still being mt ot ot. Pld can still have single strong cds and focus on holy magic and protective skills in both roles. Drk can be sustained damage resource management class.
Job identities are not tied to a position and if they are you just limit composition options and annoy players (like the sword n board fantasy plds that cant use their board right now). Job distinction should not be tied to mt ot and it doesnt need to be and hasn't always been. -
02-07-2019, 01:18 AMPhoeniciaIt is more like what they are better at. Not about what they can or can't. All 3 tanks can survive everything. WAR can do it more often, PLD requires less healing when they do it, but much less often. All three tanks can contribute to DPS checks, but WAR can do more DPS without raid buffs. But when most buffs are present PLD/DRK keep up or do more. Hence advantages/disadvantages. Tell me that NEEDING a NIN or another job to apply slashing to do "base level" DPS isn't a disadvantage. Tell me that you reaching maximum DPS without 3 of the most coveted raid buffs (Litany, Voice and Chain) is not an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izsha
Yes in fights that drag on long with many TBs WAR has a clear advantage. Look at O10S, WAR is pretty much the only tank that won't run out of CDs to mitigate Tail End if the boss so chooses to throw all of the later phases TBs at it whereas the PLD needs help twice and DRK once. These "playstyles" are dictated by said advantages and disadvantages.