Difficulty hiearchy (PvE)

I'd say

-Normal 8 man/Alliance Raid/Dungeons/Trials/Duties/Guildhest all slot into the same difficulty assuming you have the correct ilv. Basically tourist mode intended for a guaranteed clear for all players.

then a massive jump with no in-between.

-Extreme trials
-Savage
-Ultimate

PotD/HoH have their own seperate category where the difficulty scales depending on floor.

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Originally Posted by Frizze

So needing more people to play well for longer would mean that the alliance runs probly should be considered harder then normal raids, but all the extra bodies also means theres even more room for variation caused by exceptional people (...)

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I know all that, but that have nothing to do with the question the original poster presented, as far as I understand.

What I understood from the the original poster is question about the innate difficulty of the content.

Let's add some numbers. If we'll assume that that players have a skill level between 1 and 10 and raid have a difficulty of 5, then a person with a skill level of 5 is neither a dead weight nor a "safety valve". If the average of all players is 5 or more, the party clears.

Now, if we'll assume that every single other player in the party/alliance is at-level for the content, the only variable is the player in question. If the player is even one level below the contents difficulty, the party will fail.

When taking into consideration looking purely at mechanical difficulty, it is not clear-cut whether alliance or raids are more difficult since it varies from one to the other.

What I said is that I believe that some of the alliances are more difficult than some of the raids and vice versa for purely mechanical reasons, requiring from the individual players a higher level of skills to pass it. Whether it is compensated by highly skilled players or not is besides the point.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I know all that, but that have nothing to do with the question the original poster presented, as far as I understand.

What I understood from the the original poster is question about the innate difficulty of the content.

Let's add some numbers. If we'll assume that that players have a skill level between 1 and 10 and raid have a difficulty of 5, then a person with a skill level of 5 is neither a dead weight nor a "safety valve". If the average of all players is 5 or more, the party clears.

Now, if we'll assume that every single other player in the party/alliance is at-level for the content, the only variable is the player in question. If the player is even one level below the contents difficulty, the party will fail.

When taking into consideration looking purely at mechanical difficulty, it is not clear-cut whether alliance or raids are more difficult since it varies from one to the other.

What I said is that I believe that some of the alliances are more difficult than some of the raids and vice versa for purely mechanical reasons, requiring from the individual players a higher level of skills to pass it. Whether it is compensated by highly skilled players or not is besides the point.

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Using this scaling as a basis I think it sort of further pushes normal raids below Alliance raids.

In a vacuum you have 8 or 24 people sitting at a 5 in terms of skill and it all works out. No dead weight and no outstanding performances. That isn't how the actual world works though.

Since basically none of this content has a hard enrage the requisite skill level for dps is essentially don't die. With 8 party members alive there are no difficult dps checks to make as none of the "burn the add before the gague fills" situations are challenging. For any tank but the MT most fights are "you're a dps with worse numbers and more utility who occasionally grabs an add" so that makes the tank skill floor also rather low.

Healers are subjective but In terms of an actual minimum requirement there isn't much. If you aren't dpsing you're standing there a lot.

Not having players met these "5" benchmarks isn't particularly common but when it happens it sucks... but in an Alliance raid there are that many more people to pick up the slack. If I have 3 awful codps in a normal raid we are going to go really slow. If there are 3 of those same dps in an Alliance raid it's less of an issue.

Tl;dr - you can hide or be carried in alliance better than almost anywhere else especially as a dps. I think this makes alliance overall less difficult though I admit it's splitting hairs.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Using this scaling as a basis I think it sort of further pushes normal raids below Alliance raids.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Tl;dr - you can hide or be carried in alliance better than almost anywhere else especially as a dps. I think this makes alliance overall less difficult though I admit it's splitting hairs.

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I'm not really sure. You claim that using my scaling as a basis normal raids are pushed further below, meaning that it would make them easier. Then you proceed to say the exact opposite by elaborately explaining why alliance is supposedly easier. But that's besides the point.

I may understand the original question wrong, but how I see it and how I explained it is completely different than what you keep answering.

The question I see is "Which content will be progressively harder for me to do well in."
The question you keep answering is "Which content will make it progressively less likely for me to clear on each attempt."

They may seem like one and the same but they are two completely different things. The first question completely removes the viability of being carried, the second question does not. Effectively, nothing but savage and extreme have any difficulty variable for the second question because all the other content allows you to be carried. Asking for that is pointless.


Basically the difference is between individual skill level difficulty and party skill level difficulty. Those vary between the alliances and raids, whether comparing one to the other or within their own categories.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

I'm not really sure. You claim that using my scaling as a basis normal raids are pushed further below, meaning that it would make them easier. Then you proceed to say the exact opposite by elaborately explaining why alliance is supposedly easier. But that's besides the point.

I may understand the original question wrong, but how I see it and how I explained it is completely different than what you keep answering.

The question I see is "Which content will be progressively harder for me to do well in."
The question you keep answering is "Which content will make it progressively less likely for me to clear on each attempt."

They may seem like one and the same but they are two completely different things. The first question completely removes the viability of being carried, the second question does not. Effectively, nothing but savage and extreme have any difficulty variable for the second question because all the other content allows you to be carried. Asking for that is pointless.

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I suppose we both interpreted the OP differently. If you're talking about places where you can perform well I suppose they're equal then as performance in either is basically a non-issue.

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

I suppose we both interpreted the OP differently. If you're talking about places where you can perform well I suppose they're equal then as performance in either is basically a non-issue.

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Performance in both is a very big issue. Both have mechanics with very much lethal effects and both can be screwed up beyond repair. Both require more activity than "spam while moving in a relatively small area on the field". There are varied numbers of people that can easily pick up the slack, but that does nothing, absolutely nothing, for people that actually care about their performance.

Some just don't want to be a dead weight. They will do the easier content first enough as to get the reflexes and such to a level that they can hold their own in a more difficult content. Not everything and not everyone in a game is about clearing. Learning parties in party finder are the best example of that, where clearing is secondary, getting your performance and knowledge of the fight up to par is the priority.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

Performance in both is a very big issue. Both have mechanics with very much lethal effects and both can be screwed up beyond repair. Both require more activity than "spam while moving in a relatively small area on the field". There are varied numbers of people that can easily pick up the slack, but that does nothing, absolutely nothing, for people that actually care about their performance.

Some just don't want to be a dead weight. They will do the easier content first enough as to get the reflexes and such to a level that they can hold their own in a more difficult content. Not everything and not everyone in a game is about clearing. Learning parties in party finder are the best example of that, where clearing is secondary, getting your performance and knowledge of the fight up to par is the priority.

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You can literally afk your way through either of these styles of content. There is no enrage. Without literally everyone also playing at that low of a level you will still clear. This is what I mean by performance not mattering.

If someone would like to push themselves to keep improving in that content that's great and it's a lovely training ground for Savage but the point is you don't need to. I know I always appreciate when I find out someone is outdpsing me but it's by no means a requirement there. We will clear just fine with every single dps playing full pants-on-head.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

It isn't so much an increasing level of difficulty, more like an increasing expected item level.

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It's definitely more than just ilvl. Once you get into the Extreme and Savage fights (and to a lesser degree but still occasionally present, normal and alliance raids), avoiding damage becomes much more crucial. Up to that point, players are conditioned to feel like moving out of aoes is a recommendation, not a rule, and the healers can easily cover for your mistake - and even if you somehow die, chances are good that the fight can be completed anyway. Once you get to Extreme or Savage, only the most generous of cases allow you to survive a mishandled damage mechanic (and even then, they'll usually give you a vulnerability stack that ensures you can't do it twice), and if you do die, depending on the fight you'll often be ensuring a wipe.

They are also the point at which Enrages become a regular thing; not only do you NEED to avoid the damage, but you need to do so while also cranking out an expected level of DPS. None of this is necessary in the more casual content.

This results in a pretty huge gap in difficulty, to be honest. Before the gap, ilvl is irrelevant beyond what you need to actually access the content. After the gap, it's important, but it's not the only thing that's important.

Hardest content SE ever made: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqcyQAjPEC0

Fight me!:cool:

I haven't done relevant savage raids or EX trials. Out of everything else, I would say normal raids are the most mechanically difficult, while alliance raids would be the most difficult due to the sheer number of random players, many of whom work against each other. As such, the mechanics don't require a whole lot of coordination so much as individual players playing well, but they do hit like bricks.

It's difficult for me to say which is harder. Both have left me with an increased heart rate, and happy to get the hell out of there with a clear.

There are also 'git gud' dungeons like aurum vale, the vault, Baelsar's wall, etc. that I would rank higher than expert roulette.