Yoshi-P doesn't want healers to be green DPS. Don't expect any expansion of the DPS skills. We might see an Aero IV and Stone V, or Holy II, but you won't see additional DPS skills to make healers have "more to do", they are not there for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by MontyChamberlain
Every game has the same problem of players not picking the support class, and then crying for nerfs to the support class if they do more damage than the combat classes. That is why healers are the way they are. If any additional DPS skills are added, it will come with a nerf to existing DPS skills so healers still do the same damage they were doing before.
They're a support class, not a DPS class. WHM has Repose and Stun(Holy), AST has just stun (Celestial Opposition), and nobody uses Repose even in the content that was designed for it, because gear creep has made it faster to just burn through it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selvokaz
Besides that, there is a limit to how many buffs and debuffs a monster can have, and certain effects overwrite each other. So if you have two healers casting the same buffs, they are wasting them if they overwrite.
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07-29-2018, 12:57 AMKisaiTenshi
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07-29-2018, 04:03 AMCapn_GogglesNo offense intended to the developers or specific members of the team, but what Yoshi-P wants and what we actually have are complete opposites and someone would have to be blind to not see this. Healers *are* green DPS in the same vein that Tanks are Blue DPS; for both of these roles their primary job is completely binary and sparsely called upon, enforcing large swathes of downtime with nothing to do except dish out as much damage as possible. The only way to enforce purity of role would be to massively overhaul *every* major fight and *every* tank and healer in the game, and then you run into the issue of players who actually enjoy the blue/green DPS paradigm packing their bags for greener pastures and making the queue times noticeably worse than they already are.Quote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
The easiest solution is to keep espousing this opinion while keeping things exactly the same, the more difficult but rewarding choice would be to acknowledge that everyone pulls double-duty and designing jobs to accommodate and better integrate this philosophy. -
07-30-2018, 04:20 PMPerrinTaveren
I don't have a problem with healer dps, because otherwise people will be too greedy to make damage then heal people (which can already be an issue). It is your JOB to heal, dps can mess up and die, tank can mess up etc. I can understand the frustration of raising a dps over and over but you are the healer. An alive dps is better than a dead one. But if they increase healer dps in some way, it will go like this: ''I don't HAVE TO heal any unnecessary damage". Which is already an issue for some toxic players.
I already do immense dps as my SCH while doing AoE, if they improve it, it would be ridiculous tbh. I agree spamming 1 button can be boring at times but you are not there to dps. You can't expect a dps level complexity from a healer dps. Healers already have their own things to handle and healing can get REALLY stressful if your party isn't doing well at all. So adding all these AST debuff for example, would make AST sooo complicated. It would raise the pressure of healer dps even more, much much more.
I have been a healer for 3 years now so i can dps and heal with no issue. But there are lots of newbies, players who are new to healing or just players who can't play that well due to some physical restrictions etc. If we count players in the game, in my opinion, a huge majority of them are really casual players. Not everyone play this game for end-game raiding, most play to be with friends or just relax after some real life complications. So you CAN'T make a job too complex for players. And improving healer dps would make that because of solely the pressure it will give the healers. Because healer dps is already ''expected'', it will be a must after that.
I always say, if you want to dps, go play a dps. Healers are there for healing first, then contributing dps if needed or if they want to. I may be approaching this in a casual way, because i can relate to players who get blamed over and over because they wiped but ofc it is not tank's fault of popping no CDs whatsoever, or dps ofc who refuse to dodge AoEs. So, yes healer dps will always be choice in my opinion. People shouldn't do what they are not comfortable with. You cannot compare it to a dps job whose only thing is to dps, or tank, they automatically dps with auto attack and when they do their combos etc.
So all in all, healer dps shouldn't be more complicated, nor easier. -
07-31-2018, 01:04 AMNitro-Jasper-onyx
Well they could always change it up to make savage like Mythic raiding in WoW, where there is just constant raid wide damage going out, but I'm not sure how that would work out great with the raid sizes in FF14 and the mana regen options.
Seems like the dev's aren't interested in that though, I'm sure I read they aren't really interested in healer DPS, they don't think its important or that healers should feel they need to "pump out the numbers"
Most MMO's that use the trinity roles (tank, DPS, healer) give healers very limited damage options. -
07-31-2018, 09:19 AMSebazyWHM DPS abilities: 2 HW - 1 SBQuote:
Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi
Heals: 2 HW - 2 SB
50/50: 1 HW - 1 SB (And I'd actually argue that Assize is a DPS ability but I'll put it in 50/50s to be kind).
Both expansions had a 'game changer' for WHM's DPS by way of Assize and Thin Air (both which I've counted as a 50/50 in light of their versatility).
SCH DPS abilities: 1 HW - 2 SB
Heals: 3 HW - 2 SB
50/50: 1 HW - 0 SB (I'd argue that Quickened Aetherflow fills this role for SB even if it is a trait rather than an action).
HW officially did very little for SCH DPS with the dissipation opener being the main thing here. The Miasma II revamp ended up being the SB game changer for SCH dps alongside Quickened Aetherflow.
AST DPS Abilities: 1 SB
Heals: 0 SB
50/50: 2 SB
AST didn't really get a big DPS game changer for SB, rather it got two smaller ones by the way of Earthly Star and Minor Arcana. It's interesting to note that it's DPS kit is painfully incomplete pre HW content and Gravity though.
The TLDR of this waffle is that I'm not really sure why you are so insistent that we aren't going to see any more DPS skills outside of token upgrades when history has consistently shown the exact opposite to be true. -
07-31-2018, 10:32 AMGrimoire-M
Really, what we need is heavy auto attack/prey phases that force the use of single target GCD heals in fights in order to deal with the extended onslaught of damage. And the key word there is extended. In previous raids preys and multi hit busters have been something that good oGCD usage could obviate the need for GCD heals, but as it is, we need more healer challenges focused around low to moderate damage over longer stretches of time rather than 'Buster' and 'Back to Back Raid AoE'. Given each healer has oGCD sources of AoE healing over time we could stand to have more damage over time in that manner as well. Or have situations where the healer has to keep players BELOW a certain HP threshold or they die so that you have to use HoTs and shields instead of Cure III/Indom immediately.
But I do agree that Healers need more DPS cooldowns, ideally as a tradeoff for healing cooldowns as we don't have enough push and pull in that area as it is. It's something WHM could benefit from immensely with a real and proper Lily rework. And something that SCH already has integrated into their kits perfectly. AST has some of this too, but Lord/Lady isn't really a good trade off compared to sheer card buff spam. They may need something else in that regard, perhaps a trait giving them a free Lord/Lady every draw so they get more use out of it. At the moment though I'd argue they need stance swap cooldowns to patch over their weaknesses more come next expansion, especially as Noct. Overbuffing their shields just makes it harder to balance around them compared to SCH instead of addressing the issue outright by giving them limited access to their other stance. -
08-12-2018, 11:38 AMMiesta
I do have a question and an honest one at that. Why would you consider a healer who doesn't dps bad? I mean if I wanted to dps id roll one. I do understand that it would help the boss be killed faster, but if the dps cant do their job properly and need help from the healer then they aren't very good dps in the first place. I may be old school where a healer heals and a dps...well you get the point. I may be just spouting nonsense and could be seriously bad, but idk...just food for thought I guess.
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08-12-2018, 07:38 PMLimoniaFor me it's because it's extremely unfair to the other party members who are doing things and pressing buttons all the time, while the healer who doesn't dps either just spams the Cure button mindlessly or stands there and let's the other members work for him while he only presses Cure like every 10 seconds. I don't want to carry the healer through the dungeon, and why do I have to farm his tomestones or gear for him? This should be a team effort.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miesta
It IS a fact that this game is designed in a way where there is much downtime between healing needed. While there are other games where playing a pure healer might be engaging, if you are doing it in this game, you are idling like 50 - 95% of the time, depending on the content you're doing. That's just not ok for me. It's so disrespectful towards the others in your group.
It's not even only about making the run faster and helping the "bad" DPS. This argument is soooo old. It's mostly about just not being half afk while the others are doing stuff all the time. Yes, DPS should not need help from the healer to kill the boss. But you really shouldn't talk about bad DPS players when only using 10% of your healer's abilities is fine for you.Quote:
I mean if I wanted to dps id roll one. I do understand that it would help the boss be killed faster, but if the dps cant do their job properly and need help from the healer then they aren't very good dps in the first place.
And that is alright! But not in this game.Quote:
I may be old school where a healer heals and a dps
Also, from what I've seen... While I'm more of a casual player (I haven't even tried O7S yet), I've been playing since 2013. You see some stuff in all those years. When I see a healer that doesn't dps at all or only very little, like 80% of the time he doesn't really know what to do when things go wrong because players get hit by avoidable AoEs or do mechanics wrong. Because he isn't used to doing more than pressing Cure and Medica II, he can't use his abilities properly when needed. Often I don't ever see them using things like Assize or Earthly Star. Talking about AST, those kind of healers usually don't utilize their cards right and just throw out AoE Spires or Boles because they just press whatever. And I won't even begin of healing buffs like Largesse or Synastry. Also, I can't remember ever seeing a heal-only WHM that used Presence of Mind. Because why would he have to use it when pressing Cure and Medica is enough? Also, why do heal-only SCH neeeever use Shadow Flare? It's instant and OGCD. You don't have to stop healing at all to use it!
I also have to say that I don't think a healer has to do super great dps. For me, it's enough when I see that he at least tries to keep up his DoTs and occasionally casts Stone / Malefic / Broil when there is not much healing needed. I like to dps a lot as a healer (even though I think healer dps itself isn't the most engaging and could use more interesting mechanics), but as long as the others don't idle / spam Cure, it's fine with me, even if they only dps when they feel safe to do so. -
08-13-2018, 10:29 AMBourne_EndeavorThe issue is this game simply allows for so much downtime, if you aren't actively DPSing, you will be functionally useless for a majority of any fight, including Ultimate. It isn't simple DPS should just DPS more, damage is damage. Why ask your DPS and tanks to contribute as much as possible; keeping their GCD rolling to the tune of 95-99% efficiency while yours isn't even half that? You're expecting the group to do more now because you aren't willing to contribute. While you may prefer healing, FFXIV isn't the game for you then—no matter what the devs argue. They can prattle on about not expecting healers to DPS, but when upwards of 80% of your casts will be a DPS spell, the community will expect you use them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Miesta
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08-13-2018, 11:53 AMEkimmakWhile I agree with everything you said, I can understand why the healer DPS spells aren't complex.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor
It's because they need to be something that can be dropped instantly to focus on healing.