How Do You Feel When Old Content Is Made Easier?

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Originally Posted by Fytayn

The title says it all but I'll elaborate:

Arguments about older content being made easier, or less work, inevitably mention personal reasons against it. I'm not going to go over those here but they're often made by implying many people feel the same as the person making the argument. The problem is there's no way to know how widespread the opinion is.

So how do you feel? There's no need to use specific cases, or make an argument, I'm only asking for personal opinions. You don't need to justify yourself but if you want to then feel free.

Please don't attack people for their opinions.

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The game doesn't have the same difficulty curve due to gear creep, and ARR content really is a push over, even when levelsynced. Only the players who played 2.0 at release, actually got to experience the entire game at a difficulty level that made sense. If you played a healer from the beginning, you also got to experience every solo fight taking 10 times longer.

To get that experience again, you have to play the new content on the first day it's out, and if you've overgeared it already by playing the raiding content, then you also don't experience it at the difficulty level it was designed at.

Where the game needs to fix or adjust things is to have the "minimum ilevel" be the default setting until the content is cleared by everyone in the party. It's painfully awful to play LotA/ST/WoD now and have players wipe to mechanics because they try to skip them. Like both Scylla and Glasya Labolas in Sycrus Tower, don't even get to their main mechanic. Some players even survive Xande's Ancient Quaga, when that was an instant KO before. At least WoD's mechanics aren't particularly cheesed by gear creep.

Which is to say, I don't think all content should be raid-tier hard at all times. Rather I think new and returning players are robbed of any satisfaction in clearing content if the content can be completed by overpowering it. That's the very problem other MMORPG's have. It's not as bad as other games (which are equal to running everything unsynced), but they present little or no challenge for the reward given. If LotA and Rabanastre have the same reward, but different difficulty, then there is no incentive to play the hard content when the same reward comes from the easy content.

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Originally Posted by ManuelBravo

Besides the fact that people are wiping in old content, can't follow simple mechanics, think they know their job and can't use Simple CD? As for shin really? It was pretty much main attacks from old Aions battles. If people think it's new then they must really not understand or put attention to battle mechanics. This is what happens when you remove XP penalty from games. Give them a trophy for just trying lol. Well it's not FFXI but hey this is a nice time killer guess we can only teach or put up with it. But carry people lol funny.

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Yes, people are wiping on any sort of content because they dont understand mechanics - but the mechanics are still there.

I asked you what content got significantly nerfed. Not what content people struggle with.
Look at it though: People were and are struggeling with Shinryu NM and yet he still got all his mechanics. Wether or not you personally think those mechanics are difficult or not doesnt matter in the context of content being nerfed, because in most cases it doesnt.

Your points might be somewhat valid, but they're not relevant to the question of old content being made easier or the topic of nerfing content.
You could always carry someone through 95% of content, because besides EX-primals and Savage its not even that difficult to begin with, even without it being hypothetically nerfed.

It's kind of a mixed bag....

On one hand it makes me sad how pathetically easy some fights (all of the coils) and old alex (1-4savage) are. Some of these had great fights and mechanics that made getting gear 'worth it'. Now, the bosses go down and poof! easy peasy.....and.....easy chest/mount/wep. Takes away the challenge. Personally, I hate that these fights go down so easy.

On the other hand, I was able to clear and farm a8s about 6 months ago....not sure if i would have been able to if it wasn't made easier.

Bottom line, i think nerfing fights takes away a lot of the effort from players who worked their butts off and makes it trivial which is very sad. Nothing should just be handed to anyone. Everything should still be ilvl synched imo.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I would disagree with older content being made easier - it gets easier, yes, but not by actually altering the content.

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They do alter the content. Echo is basically a nerf.

The problem with making content easier all the time is it destroys accomplishment, prestige and exclusivity of rewards.. All of which then destroy value of the content..

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Originally Posted by ArcaviusGreyashe

but glamour/mounts/minions are available for everyone... That's a good thing.

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why is It?
Why are exclusive rewards a bad thing that people must overcome the challenges to get...
Why would it be bad that a mount be exclusive because it's locked behind a tough fight thus not easily available to everyone....
Because they have something you can't have.....

Yet an exclusive mount on the mogstation that's not easily affordable by everyone is seen as fine by those same people who think exclusivity via content is a terrible idea..
Because now its you that has something that others can't have...

It's hypocritical.

In arr I beat coils and unlocked an exclusive loisoux minion and final witness title. They were both quite rare and had some prestige to them. Second heavensward came around with unsynced mode that value and prestige was destroyed.. now anyone can get those rewards easily and effortlessly...

But if I want a dalamund minion I'm screwed because I didn't buy a soundtrack back in the day and now I can never have I one. They won't add it to the mogstation because that takes away the exclusivity from those who bought the soundtrack.....

Total hypocrisy....


If you want the same reward someone else has you should have to overcome the same challenges to get it....

I would actually prefer they rework the level-syncing system to scale people down closer to the relevant ilvl of the content. Old content has become so laughably easy, it gives players false impressions on what the game will be like once they reach endgame. From a personal perspective, I would love to actually experience Syrcus Tower, but you can just muscle throw all their mechanics nowadays.

On a more controversial side, I've always thought it's cheap how mounts drop when you unsync everything.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

They do alter the content. Echo is basically a nerf. The problem with making content easier all the time is it destroys accomplishment, prestige and exclusivity of rewards.. All of which then destroy value of the content..

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Not for me /shrug

I notice more and more lately that I dont care about bragging-rights in this game but about wether or not I have fun with it.
I didnt get my Ramuh pony back then to show off, but because I happen to like the music and wanted to listen to it while making my way through the shroud.
And I didnt farm for my Shinryu dog to prove to anyone that I'm able to clear that fight but because it fitted my paladin-glamour at the time.

The value of content for me comes from wether or not I have fun with it - mounts are certainly a way to make me run it again and again, that much is true. But I only do that when I'm actually having fun running that content - and thats the mainpart that no one can take away from me, even if they get the same mount 2 years later with much less effort.

I'm only feeling sorry for those people who'd like to have the proper challenge today, but have a hard time finding a group willing to do the fights synched with minimum ilvl.
But your bragging rights...?
You know yourself that you've accomplished that - and thats something no one can take away from you. To me thats the important part - that I know that I cleared it the way I wanted to clear it, with the maximum amount of fun. Dont care what other people know/think.

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Originally Posted by Fytayn

Arguments about older content being made easier, or less work

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Depends. For me, if we’re talking about previous expansion content getting nerfed (e.g., older Relic grinds), then I don’t really see an issue. With Relics specifically, they’re obsolete the moment a new expansion comes out, so why continue to make them a painful grind?

With regards to battle content specifically, it naturally gets easier with better gear, because you’re just able to power through it, or completely unsync it with newer expansions/level caps and trivialize most of the hard mechanics (there are some exceptions, of course). So I think older battle content getting easier is just a natural occurrence.

With regards to content getting nerfed in the same patch/expansion, I typically disagree with this. I understand the reasoning given behind some of the content nerfs (i.e., Steps of Faith), but I don’t necessarily agree with it. I think if things were a bit more challenging/remained a bit more challenging, and weren’t nerfed when someone cries about it being too hard, overall player skill would increase and cries for nerfs would cease to be an issue. Content that was previously nerfed becomes even more of a joke once you blatantly start to outgear it in future expansions (Amdapor Keep/Demon Wall, Pharos Sirius), and it honestly saddens me to think about how challenging it used to be, and how much of a joke it is now (I never got to experience Pharos when it wasn’t nerfed, but I have seen videos and heard the stories of both it and the original Demon Wall in Amdapor Keep). Though, perhaps that could be changed with lower ilvl syncs for content. But then that will just spark more complaining about difficulty.

I do get aggravated the minute a piece of content comes out and people call for it to be nerfed because they just seem to not want to have to try. And I do feel respect for the developers when they refuse to nerf pieces of content despite people wanting it (e.g., Weeping City, Final Steps of Faith story mode). I don’t think general content needs to be Savage-difficulty, but I would like to see things like dungeons pose a bit more of a challenge—especially the so-called “Expert” dungeons, which are oftentimes easier than leveling dungeons even at release (so, before overgearing, i.e., Kugane Castle).

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Originally Posted by Dzian

The problem with making content easier all the time is it destroys accomplishment, prestige and exclusivity of rewards.. All of which then destroy value of the content.

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How does it devalue it? You did the content when it was relevant, and you have your own proof of that, if it really matters that much (i.e., Achievement dates)—I get the feeling a lot of your talk about Coil (the Louisoix minion/title, the “prestige”) comes from you feeling like others will just think you unsynced the content to get the goodies; achievements prove that wrong, since they’re dated on the Lodestone. You have all the proof you need to make a claim that you cleared content at-release/when it was relevant versus someone like myself, who had to clear Coil unsynced at 60 because very few people care to do it at synced level 50 nowadays.

How does people unsyncing the content devalue your own synced experience if it’s not the case I stated above?

If players were required to do content synced for things like mounts or titles, you can guarantee that the content would die instantly—most do not want that challenge. The ones that do either have hard times finding like-minded people, or are told “lol just unsync it in PF” when they try to go for synced clears.

For me personally, it doesn’t matter if someone gets their clears/ponies/birds/dogs/titles synced or unsynced—I cleared the ARR Ex primals in 3.1 at level 50; sure I was a bit overgeared in a mixture of gear from the MSQ and some i115 crafted, but I still did it. And it was fun. And no one can take that away from me, even if they clear it today at level 70 in full 350/360/370 and get their ponies. I cleared Deltascape and Sigmascape within their relative tier cycles, and it was an accomplishment for me; no one can take that away from me.

It’s my personal opinion that the only one who can devalue an achievement is oneself.


The only conflicting opinion I have with regards to this is wanting Ultimate to remain item level synced. But that stems more so from wanting some piece of this content to retain its original difficulty with no changes to it rather than becoming a faceroll fest when people can just blatantly outgear it. But, if I clear it during SB when its relevant, I suppose it doesn’t really matter. It being unsynced won’t devalue my achievement; I’ll just be sad to see the content that was once so difficult become more and more trivial. But I feel that way about all content, I guess.

Indifferent to happy?

When I am done with a piece of content, I stop caring about it. Nerf it to the ground, remove it, buff it, rework it, whatever. I don't intend to step foot in there ever again, it's essentially gone for me. For the sake of others, it'd be nice if it remained an option in the game, though. But that's as far as my consideration of other people goes.

When I am not done with a piece of content, I am typically happy if it becomes easier, because I need to put in less effort to get what I want from it. There's just one caveat, really: When the thing I want from it is a challenge. Then a nerf directly compromises my purpose of doing it in the first place. But in that case, it's sufficient to simply allow me to revert the nerf for myself. In fairness though, it's rare that I play anything in 'this' game for a challenge, because I find single-player games to be far more gratifying and satisfying for that, for those make your achievements personal ones instead of group achievements.

It depends on the content. If it's something like Triple Triad, where more keeps getting added to it over time, then I really wouldn't mind increased drop rates. *Glares at a couple cards that still refuse to drop for her no matter how often she massacres those NPCs* ...Likewise, I'm fine with some older NPCs become a smidge easier to defeat as we get more, better cards to work with. (Chaos is still garage, past or present content, however)

If we're talking dungeons and raids then I'm fine, to an extent, with seeing how much our characters have grown compared to old challenges. Like, I laugh at the ease of the first four Turns of Coil, and probably might with T5 if latency didn't hold me back against a certain add in the last phase, while soloing. *shrugs*

To me if content isn't the latest in its series, there isn't a reason to care. Hard content for me is about the accomplishment of clearing it on content, and once it's a patch or two old, it's not on content anymore, and even if it's still hard it doesn't feel like something I should bother with anymore even if I still have reasons to go into it. So no, I don't care if it gets nerfed. Let the lesser skilled players have their honest crack at it. There's new stuff for the higher skilled players to go for.