The time has come to get rid of enrage timers

Perhaps the problem is just the way the jobs are designed. Tanks probably should have never had a DPS stance or DPS abilities. If you removed them and spread them out over the DPS jobs you could still have the enrage timers and such. The problem then is how do you make Tanks feel like they play different while doing the same thing? And there is solo content like job quests where healers need damage abilities so... taking DPS options from them is hard as well.

Maybe the problem is how fights are designed. Where instead of needing to keep your tank stance up the whole time you just need to pop it for a tank buster.

Maybe the problem is the ilvl where if you can out gear it it becomes to easy and not every fight has ilvl syncs.

Maybe the problem is just the player base. How many skip soar Zurvan parties were there cause no one wanted to do the mechanic or because people couldn't do the mechanic etc. etc..

I've always been a supporter of "jobs should be less punishing to play while the fights and mechanics are harder."

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

There are a few dungeon bosses with soft enrages like running out of some kind of interactable item or stacking vuln up on the party, if we had more of that maybe people would be more ready for a hard enrage.

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The later trials do have soft and hard enrages. Ravana is soft, Bismarck has both (hard with dragons, soft via island durability) and sus ex's sword phase are hard. Shin hard's add phase has enrage too, you saw it a lot when it launched and people died alot because the safe areas seemed a lot tighter. But you'd need to make all of them harder, because they are easy enough to be carried through.

This is the big problem; you make it have enough teeth to be a teaching moment, you get a lot of wipes and deaths overall, and not a few abandons.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You'd have to change the model to be like ex content in general; you have a learning party, a clear party, and then you do it a relatively small time if you actually need the weapon from it, or a large time if you want everything possible you can get from it.

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You're coming at it from the wrong angle. I'm not saying you just walk up to the closest newbie and flog them with a carp. That would be hilarious, briefly, but ultimately solves nothing. It's a gradual process.

You don't, for example, take Cutter's Cry Chimera and give him all of the mechanics from A Relic Reborn. Rather, you keep him the same mechanically while significantly increasing his outgoing auto-attack damage. You make it so that I cannot, regardless of my skill or gear, survive against him for long without my healer. On any tank job. You also add hard enrages on Titan HM and Ravana HM, in addition to their already existing DPS checks (which should be bumped up a bit more so that two competent DPS out of four total can't carry), so that people aren't sitting there for 10+ minutes waiting for another chance to do the fight and are actively encouraged to participate.

Would the game lose players? Maybe. Would people whine and rage quit more often? For a time. But let's be real here, if you willfully refuse to push your buttons and do even 60~65% of your job's full potential at any given level you're not really playing the game anyway. And that's why things like Final Steps of Faith and Royal Managerie were kind of awful experiences in DR Trials at first anyway; the game didn't provide stepping stones of difficulty to get people into shape and instead just threw them to the wolves after letting them be carried for ages (by nerfing anything with fangs previous into the ground).

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Originally Posted by Chooty

That's a big contradiction, if your group is competent you're not hitting enrage in o4s in the first place. Hell, you could probably auto attack neo to death in less than 60 minutes.

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Is there any chance we can turn off enrages just to test that?

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Originally Posted by Quor

If dps checks/enrages are going to remain, then everyone needs to accept that the DPS meta is the meta that rules them all. That means as much damage out of everyone, with only as much healing done as "necessary" and tank stances being used for a fraction of the fight.

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The majority of the community already accepts this as truth though, because it is: Everything in this game revolves around dealing as much damage as you can, as quickly as you can. This is evidenced in the very way the MSQ's solo instances, even for healers, are set up. There is a subset of the community that pushes back and asserts that healers should only heal, and tanks should sit in enmity stance at all times... but those people are factually wrong.

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On the one hand they say that there shouldn't be this DPS min/maxing meta that pushes speed and lower clear times, but on the other they push a game design that encourages DPS min/maxing in order to succeed. Either the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing, or SE is full of it.

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When in doubt, just always assume that SE is full of it. It makes life so much easier.

When Yoshi says nonsensical things like "I want people to be able to play how they want," he's somewhere between saying "I need this people to subscribe to this game and maybe they'll learn to git gud over time" and "I don't want to encourage people to get hostile with one another." Look no further than his own chosen role: BLM. Playing how you want would imply you can be a Thunder- or Ice-mage, and yet clearly you're not going to make it through your solo instance encounters by doing that.

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I think the punishment is in the time taken. It's easy to imagine a group of mouthbreathers throwing themselves at something until it dies, but gear durability is a thing, and duties already have a hard-locked timer on them of 60-120 minutes.

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I do feel the need to point out that the complete removal of DPS checks and enrage timers would necessitate a massive increase in enemy HP and, by extension, would just turn the 60~120 minute instance timer into an enrage all its own.

"And since we're not all uber gosu top .2% players of our classes, it means everyone has to pull their weight and a bit more. Every GCD not spent optimizing damage is a GCD that could mean Exdeath Meteor's your group instead of transitioning to Neo. So I say, let's get rid of enrage timers."
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You do not need to be an uber .2% player and it's also not true that everyone has to pull their weight. I am in a very diverse static where some players are better than others. Some play at a decent level, some play at a higher level. We can get past Ex Death with four deaths and that's saying something as our total DPS was never amazing. Seems like you are a walking hyperbole that's detached from reality. DPS checks haven't been difficult since Gordias.
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" if you don't have the ilvl or character level to enter a certain duty, then you just can't enter it. So if a person has the ability to enter an duty, why further restrict their ability to complete said duty by imposing another arbitrary hurdle to overcome?"
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Because having a minimum item level ensures that you will be able to at a minimum contribute in a meaningful way. The ilvl requirement is bypassed by being in a full party. Most likely under the presumtion that if you are part of a full party, people know and/or can deal with you appropriately and timely when being undergeared. If you are joining Zurvan Extreme with ilvl 130 gear equiped, then you are wasting that party's time by making the clear that much more difficult. You will never contribute in a meaningful way and your lack of HP will only hinder the party even more. So asking why an enrage on top of this is necessary is incredibly stupid.
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"SE apparently doesn't want people using DPS meters because reasons, yet they build encounters in a game that implicitly encourage the kind of behavior they say they are against. Fine. Do you want to stop this kind of stuff SE? Then stop it with the enrage timers."
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DPS meters will always be desirable to an extend even if you take away enrages. Pushing bosses and clearing faster for farm parties. Do you think Dragoons that do 2000 DPS on Alt Roite are suddenly going to be excused while everyone else is in the 4-5000 range? You think people are going to be cool with 12 minute Alt Roite runs becaus there is no enrage anymore? Delusional! Maybe if we had more enrage timers, people would actually take the MINIMUM effort it requires to play a job to a capable level and we could all be happy instead.
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This all in all is some very poor argumentation as to why enrage timers should not be a thing. I'm getting pretty tired of people further dumbing down this game, more and more. Remember, the game is reflective of its playerbase. The dumbing down of class complexity is a subtle slap in the face because the community on average is deemed as too stupid to meaningfully learn an already easy system. And they would be correct in my experience. Even now, the average joe is simply not good enough. We don't need to encourage that even further.
Skipping Soar in Zurvan Ex for example. Required AVAREGE DPS. People were moaning about it being too hard. So not only was the DPS low, the DPS needed to be higher in order to avoid mechanics. How much of a circus was that?
Enrage timers, as they are right now, have a good balance to allow average players to also clear the content. It's fine the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Quor

Here's the truth; this game is made, by the devs, to encourage as much dps as possible. This is largely as a result of enrage timers and other dps checks. If you don't meet the dps check, you wipe, simple as that.

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I disagree. The game has become all about DPS because things like actual tanking, mitigation, maintaining aggro, and healing are extremely trivialized compared to other games except for some of the most difficult content in the game (i.e., Ultimate Savage). After establishing a solid lead in enmity on a particular boss, aside from mitigating certain attacks (usually tankbusters), what else is there to do? Contribute to party DPS. After making sure the party and tank are topped up, have shields, or have HoTs ticking, what else is there to do? Contribute to party DPS.

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And since we're not all uber gosu top .2% players of our classes, it means everyone has to pull their weight and a bit more. Every GCD not spent optimizing damage is a GCD that could mean Exdeath Meteor's your group instead of transitioning to Neo. So I say, let's get rid of enrage timers.

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What’s wrong with everyone having to pull their weight? DPS are expected to spend all their GCDs dealing damage, but this game does not require tanks to spend every GCD mitigating damage/increasing enmity (since SB, maintaining aggro has become trivialized and is ridiculously easy, in tank stance and out of it; it’s made even more easy when you have healers and DPS that watch their own enmity and use quellers/dumps as needed). Nor does it require healers to spend every GCD healing (in a lot of the more casual content, healers tend to spend 20~30% of their GCDs healing, so what are they do to with the other 70~80%). A PLD that stands there only hitting Flash, or using their RoH combo every minute or so isn’t acceptable in higher-end content, nor is a healer standing there casting a GCD every 20~30 seconds acceptable (and such performance is completely inexcusable at an Extreme trial/Savage raid/Ultimate level).

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Why do we even have them any more?

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Because then a party can bring 6 tanks and 2 healers and spend 30 minutes to an hour wailing on a boss until it finally dies. They aren’t going to be punished for failing mechanics frequently (i.e., they aren’t punished for dying and receiving damage penalties from Weakness or Brink of Death), and they won’t be punished for “running out of time”—be it by a hard enrage or soft enrage—so why bother bringing actual damage dealers?

I see you later mention Zurvan and why people were doing solo-tank strats with it—well, the OT spot was trivialized if your MT knew what they were doing, and your healers kept the MT healed up and alive. There was no need for a tank swap, and Provoke-Shirk did not exist at the time (which only makes maintaining highest enmity even more cheesable, mind you). Why bring a second tank? They were there purely to deal damage (since there was no need to tank swap, and adds could easily be picked up by the one MT), so why not just bring a DPS, who deals damage “better” than a tank? Sure, I suppose you could have kept the second tank as a “back-up”, but they would still be fulfilling this “DPS meta” you’re going on about. It wouldn’t have been acceptable for them to /sit on the edge of the arena and wait for their “chance” to do something; they would have been at Zurvan wailing on him.

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Every single encounter in this game is already gated behind either a player level or an item level. Barring certain exceptional circumstances, if you don't have the ilvl or character level to enter a certain duty, then you just can't enter it. So if a person has the ability to enter an duty, why further restrict their ability to complete said duty by imposing another arbitrary hurdle to overcome?

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Just because a player has the ability to enter a duty (by meeting minimum item level or level requirement) doesn’t mean they have the ability to complete it. That’s what difficulty scaling and enrage timers are there for: to encourage a person to develop the skills needed to get better if they want to clear the content. Plus, I don’t think the developers wanted Extremes/Savages/Ultimate to be content where people could go in for 60~120 minutes, and spend the entire 60~120 minutes on a single pull.

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Think about it. How great would it be for a close-knit group of average players, none of them top tier at their class, but all of them competent, to marathon their way through an encounter together. Maybe it takes them 60 minutes of straight fighting to clear OS4, but if they can do the mechanics then why impose the arbitrary hurdle of an enrage timer?

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If this “group of average players” can safely perform the mechanics, what is stopping them from performing their jobs at a level to beat the content with the enrage timer present?

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By removing enrage timers, you can let tanks tank, healers heal, and dps can dps.

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This is incorrect. With no enrage timers, why even bring DPS in the first place? The additional damage isn’t needed. If there was no hard enrage in Neo, you don’t need that minimum 24,000 rDPS to beat the fight in 12 minutes and 45 seconds. That “group of average players” are able to spend 60 minutes wailing on Neo-Exdeath without such a restriction. They don’t need DPS jobs to speed things up if they want to take their time with the content. Bring a RDM to chain-rez tanks if they go down, or a healer if they go down, maybe a BRD/MCH to provide MP/TP if needed (because you know resources are going to be stretched thin if you take 60 minutes for one pull), but other than that, the rest can just be tanks or healers.

Removing an enrage timer wouldn’t really encourage tanks to “tank” more, nor for healers to “heal” more. If the developers want to encourage that, then tanks should have more worries when it comes to mitigation/aggro. Make tank stances actually matter. Right now, outside of large dungeon pulls where the damage mitigation (or healing bonus, with regards to Defiance since it doesn’t offer mitigation), tank stances are more or less arbitrary. Establish hate in a couple of GCDs, and then switch to DPS stance. If the developers want healers to heal more, then harder content should have more outgoing damage. I feel like V4S was a step in the right direction, what with heavy-hitting party damage like Almagest, and any healer that tries to get away with not healing in Ultimate are in for a rude awakening; but there is still plenty of time (in V4S, anyways...less so in Ultimate, but the time is still there) spent not healing.

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But for people who don't want to (or can't) do that, it would be another path to success that doesn't focus on insane dps optimization.

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You don’t need “insane dps optimization” to clear Neo; you don’t need to be some “uber gosu top .2% players of our classes” to clear. It can be cleared without the meta-comp, which is meta because of the synergy and optimization the jobs in the meta give, not because it is required to clear content—the meta is only needed if individuals are interested in top-tier optimization, and that only works if they actually understand how to optimize. You don’t need that optimization to clear Neo.

This statement here, to me, seems like just another way to promote laziness—players don’t actually need to learn how to play their jobs or anything, if enrage timers aren’t present. And I’m not even talking at some “uber optimized” level either, but even at a basic level.

Very few fights outside of Extremes, Savage, and Ultimate even have enrage timers (some 24-man bosses have them, but if you’re struggling with a 24-man, probably a good idea to not try your hand at any higher-end content until you can comfortablely get through Rabanastre). To a casual player that is not interested in those three types of content, removing the enrage timers doesn’t affect them. If players are interested in that type of content, well, it’s designed to be more difficult than 24-mans or “expert” roulette for a reason. Learn to play at the level needed for the content rather than asking for a pass not to.

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Remove the enrage timers and you remove a large part of the impetus behind everyone trying to push out as much dps as possible. Right now, there is no choice; you either dps hard enough to avoid enrage/clear the check or you wipe. If SE is serious about not wanting the dps speed/efficiency meta to reign supreme, then they need to remove dps checks and enrage timers and let players choose whether they want to run a sprint or a marathon.

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I’m just going to repeat my last statement: If players are interested in that type of content (Extremes, Savage, or Ultimate), well, it’s designed to be more difficult than 24-mans or “expert” roulette for a reason. Learn to play at the level needed for the content rather than asking for a pass not to.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

This all in all is some very poor argumentation as to why enrage timers should not be a thing. I'm getting pretty tired of people further dumbing down this game, more and more. Remember, the game is reflective of its playerbase. The dumbing down of class complexity is a subtle slap in the face because the community on average is deemed as too stupid to meaningfully learn an already easy system. And they would be correct in my experience. Even now, the average joe is simply not good enough. We don't need to encourage that even further.
Skipping Soar in Zurvan Ex for example. Required AVAREGE DPS. People were moaning about it being too hard. So not only was the DPS low, the DPS needed to be higher in order to avoid mechanics. How much of a circus was that?
Enrage timers, as they are right now, have a good balance to allow average players to also clear the content. It's fine the way it is.

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You're right, it is. And I too am tired of the "dumbing down" that has occurred. Yet here we are, with the WAR changes coming, and more people praising them on the tank forums than not, calling it an increase in DPS because of "gained Fell Cleaves" while completely ignoring a loss in AA DPS and the fact that the entire class is now a faceroll when it comes to damage. But I thank you for putting how I feel so eloquently into words.

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Originally Posted by Darrcyphfeid

The majority of the community already accepts this as truth though, because it is: Everything in this game revolves around dealing as much damage as you can, as quickly as you can. This is evidenced in the very way the MSQ's solo instances, even for healers, are set up. There is a subset of the community that pushes back and asserts that healers should only heal, and tanks should sit in enmity stance at all times... but those people are factually wrong.

When in doubt, just always assume that SE is full of it. It makes life so much easier.

When Yoshi says nonsensical things like "I want people to be able to play how they want," he's somewhere between saying "I need this people to subscribe to this game and maybe they'll learn to git gud over time" and "I don't want to encourage people to get hostile with one another." Look no further than his own chosen role: BLM. Playing how you want would imply you can be a Thunder- or Ice-mage, and yet clearly you're not going to make it through your solo instance encounters by doing that.

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And you as well Darrc. I don't disagree with a damn thing you say here, and you've managed to put into words something that has long eluded me. It is factually wrong. Yet there are people who hold it as god's own truth. At least now I know I'm not taking crazy pills and it's just most of the tank forums (and SE) who are insane.

Thanks for the interesting discussion folks.

Given that the whole premise of an (especially sub-based) MMO is to grind all day every day (and I'm sorry but Yoshi can say "Go play other games" all he wants but SE won't see it that way, they still want our sub money hand-over-fist), I don't see the problem with hard enrages even as early as Sastasha. Elite Dangerous is constantly tinkering and taking away the less grindy credit/rank making methods. To keep the grind hard. And they've just made the engineers even grindier in the latest beta. They're doing it in a style that MMO is truly famous for. And I say we need more grind.

So yeah, in short, start putting in hard enrages as early as Sastasha, and even the guildhests (especially that guildhest called Ward Up, where you have to kill all 5 at a similar time or else they respawn).

Well it's time for a bit of game design lesson !
First : enrage timers are not here for nothing, they are here so DPS jobs have a purpose. Your goal as dps is to deal the most damage that you can to an enemy. No enrage timer means no need for the basis of your job. You can spam your lvl 1 skill all fight long and still win, wich is, boredeom at is finest (will talk about it some lines after ^^ ). If you succeed in doing your job, you win. If you don't, you fail. It is simple, it is entertaining, it is the most basic reward system that exist.
With that recent mentality in game and in real life of "everyone must succeed at all cost" the reward circuit has been destroyed, creating a lot of players used to be rewarded just for being here.
This is exactly the point almost all F2P games works with : you got rewards just for connecting everyday, to hide de lack of content.
Why do you think games like candy crush are so successful while being totally blank ? Every thing you do make the game pop rewarding message on the screen. That's shitty ego inflation with no effort. And it works.

Back in 2.0, you were facing enrage on almost every content :
Wanderer palace (first post story dungeon) had Tomberries chasing you all the way up to the end of the dungeon, and if you were not progressing fast enough, would wipe your team: simple but entertaining mechanics, you had to kill enemies and move foward fast enough. 2d boss had adds that needed to be dealt with really fast because they inflicted lots of debuff that could lead to a wipe. Last boss had a circle of one shotting tomberies at the end of the fight. Not enough dps? they would gather on you and wipe the party.
Amdapor castle : Famous for the demon wall that was a direct dps check : not enough dps, crush on the wall. end. Last boss had a soft enrage too : not enough damage = no more statues to protect you from his special attack : wipe.
Ifrit : nails to be dealt in time.
Garuda : feathers to be dealt fast enough for them not to blow the rocks protecting you from her special attack
Titan : soft enrage in a way that his tremor attack would deal more and more damage as the fight last.
Copperbell HM : you would ran off rocks to feed the last boss worm if you took too long, wipe
Haukke Manor HM : Halicarnassus would wipe the party if you did not kill her adds fast enough
Result were players more able to deal with everything the game throw at them. Those dps checks never were too hard, as soon as you were palying correctly (not even top tier, simply correctly) you would not even face these enrages by a large margin.

Now we have the game becoming easier and easier as the time goes on : no dungeon boss have any enrage timer anymore, falling from the arena is no longer a definitive failure (resulting in players becaming even less attentive to this kind of mechanics are they are no longer punishing), no more HP penalty for dying. The more you remove penalties, the less the playerbase will be making effort to deal with, resulting in, you guess it, an increased skill gap, that Yoshi and his team try to reduce by reducing the skill ceiling, making good players less powerfull, and increasing skill floor. That is lowering general skill lvl, and as I have told, it only increase the skill gap.
Anectotal but as an exemple of far too easy content goes : when Dun Scaith was released, I once MT Ferdiad for litteraly 60% of his HP. WITHOUT ANY HEALER ALIVE. yes, all healers form 3 alliances were dead, and I managed to tank it till the end of the fight WITHOUT any heal. as a DRK. That, is NOT normal. (short story because I undestand what Darrcyphfeid could feel when finishing Calofisteri alone... that should not be possible. )

I talk about this because I see lots of players complaining "tanks deals damage bla bla bla"
First: not a tank fault if dps is doing less damage. even with everything we have as tank, we are below a same skilled lvl player's damage
2d : if content had real damage, then tanks would stay more tanking than dpsing.

After all these, let's talk about perception of difficulty and one of the reason doing that players have less and less patience with failure in DF:
With the game removing further and further punishing mechanics from the whole game beacause of "muh story mode must be easy", we have players less and less prepare for end game content. when a duty like titan were falling is punishing or Shinryu were there is a lot to be focus on pop, you have from one side players that got carried from the beginning, always told by those huge MISSION SUCCESSFULLY COMPLETED at each end of a duty, never questionned themselves about their performance, legitimately beleiving they were doing good, while not really realizing they were been carried all along. And you got players used to do endgame content mixed with them.
Now as for perception of difficulty : on one hand you have players always told they succeed in everything without effort, on the other one, you have players that are challenging themselves with Savage and Ex fights. And in between a lot of more casual players, not expert in savage, but doing pretty well anyway. When you mix them up in brain dead content (aka now 95% of the game), everything is fine, maybe skilled players will "sigh..." a bit, but they will be able to carry anyone with no trouble, as well as the middle skilled players will be able to cover for the low skilled players. Bad players will still clear 70 content without knowing about their bad performance. Now when a bit more challenging pop in DF like Shinryu, bad players are left with no clues and a true burden for the group. Average players have an harder time making up for baddies, and Skilled players have to push even more to cover for everything.
Here is the thing, when you do some EX/savage content, the difficulty is so far away from that of the rest of the game that everything became boring (we are almost at the boredom theme). No challenge at all. boss attacks come slowly, are not punishing. For a skilled player this content is awfully boring and unpleasant to do. When you are used to deal with difficult mechanics, seeing players wiping on somthing as trivial as pressing some buttons in transition phase from shinryu is discouraging. Some will keep on trying to help, some will try again to get their clear, some will disband.
The whole game being dramaticaly easy, classes being dumbed down, all of this is increasing the skill gap more and more. The only way to fix it is to keep increasing the difficulty as the player rise in lvl. Not huge wall like we have now, but a slow progressive curve.
It has been discussed a lot recently and it is the right thing to do, it is basic Game Design stuff. The goal is to maintain a difficiculty that goes along with the player increasing skill, to keep players in somthing called the "Flow". To much difficulty for the skill lvl of a player lead to anxiety. Not enough difficulty for a skill lvl leads to Boredom. FF14 is pretty bad a this as the whole game never increase in difficulty leading for boredom really fast as you becoming stronger. Worst, by having veteran players systematically paired with newcomers in low lvl content (i understand the reason to keep the content alive heh ^^ ), the content is even less punishing for them. Always easy means no progression nor skill lvl increasing. To paliate this, FF14 keep a very low difficulty all along the game.

I repeat it again : difficulty MUST always increase with the player progression, aways challenging him enough for him to improve, while not having him fall in Anxiety zone. When the players overcome difficulty with decent amout of effort (taht means that he DOES NOT have the feeling of failing too much) he progress, next thing can be a bit harder, but still in his new skill lvl range. When he progress like this, he is kept in the flow and entertained. In the end he became a better player without that "effort" you, advocating for no difficulty, seams to fear so much.

While playing FF14 everything stay at a very low lvl of difficulty. When players encounter challenge like Shinryu, while the fight being perfectly fine for that point of the game (it is the final boss of the 2d expension, remember it, please), most players never faced such gap in difficulty. They all of a sudden came from a very low difficulty to a decent one -> the players is thrown way out of the "low skill flow" SE has kept him in.
A short graphic to explain it easily:
http://classroom-aid.com/wp-content/...owChannel2.png

I let you with an explanation of the Flow for those who want to understand better why difficulty needs to always increase in order to keep the player entertained. It is something almost all game use as a reference.
Again, it is very basic Game Design knowledge.
http://fireside.gamejolt.com/post/un...esign-ghuttxg6

Now at this point some may think : he is totally out of the subject, we are talking about enrage not difficulty!
Well here the answer: how do you challenge dps players ? by having them perform their role while dealing with mechanics.
Tanks are challenged with tank busters, and sometime force their lucks by mass pulling in order to receive some damage. It is my feeling but here is why I like being a tank : I am entertained when I take a low damage as possible on a tank buster that is suppose to OS a tank. Like Holy Surge from Alexander in A12s. This kind of tank buster are also a healer challenging mechanic : they have to fill my HP fast after, and have to place a shield on me before, so I dont die either from the tank buster or from a regular attack coming next.
Healers are challenged when there is a lot of raid wide damage, like Propeller Wing following Proton from A11s or Raid wide aoe following Charybdis in A1, or when tank buster occurs.
Dps are NOT challenged by any of this, their goal is not to ensure party survivability but to KILL things. Removing enrage means removing the way to challenge DPS.
We no longer have enrage timers : we have unchallenged and weak dps.
The point is not why healers and tank dps, the point is why are they doing so ? You want to know why I like dpsing as tank ? I don't. I made myself doing it to cover for these unchallenged dps. It is not uncommon for me to run dungeons while being ABOVE both dps for the whole run, sometime not even leaving Tank stance. That should never happen. But since mobs hit like wet noodles, I choose to dps when healers are on par to break the boredom.
And i suppose it is one of the reason so few Tanks tag in roulette : because it is BORING to be a tank in roulette. Because we are NEVER challenged in our role, forcing us to do another role to keep being entertained. I'm sure the same goes for healers.
Hence why that Afk Netflix cliché ?