Interview with xenosys-vex

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Originally Posted by Crater

Warrior is still the tank that people would (edit: ) be most likely to double up on if there were no LB penalty, so that line of argument is shot, right out of the gate.

If you're going to double up on a tank, and you have, on the one hand: A) A tank with one really good party mitigation tool, and one party mitigation tool you only use if you really have to, and B) A tank with one really good party mitigation tool, obscenely powerful burst damage, higher DPS, better defensive cooldowns, better enmity management, and better mobility... Well, you're doing it wrong if you pick Tank A.

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If we had to pick a tank to double up on, I honestly say it's currently a toss up, as both PLD and WAR comes with soem strengths and weaknesses, that easily could have a group/person favor one or the other. (There were somethings not mentioned, like how Cover affects tank swaps, and or how WAR brings slashing resist if u dont have a SAM or NIN, holmgang, etc)

Except DRK of course, as there's just no reason to bring 2 DRKs over 2 WARs or 2 PLDs.

WAR does have the highest DPS, so if ur after a speed run, WAR is the way to go. But with its reliance on RNG and much more perfect play, a group whos not after a speed kill, might want more reliable dps, and can go with double PLDs.
If your healers want an easier tank to heal, then PLD is easier. If your healers can handle it, and both tanks are good, then double WAR would allow more mechanic cheezing.

DRK is pretty much the choice for a group who wants double PLDs, but wont actually double up on PLDs.

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

lol "obscenely powerful burst damage and higher dps", you're talking as if warrior deal 10-20% more damage than a pld

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Warrior deals more than "10-20% more" damage than Paladin during burst windows. Warrior bursts up to 8-10k in current gear, whereas PLD doesn't really get above 5-6k. That's 33% more if we highball PLD burst at 6k and lowball WAR burst at 8k.

Burst damage is more valuable than sustained damage, because it can be used to push phases/mechanics, has more synergy with raid buffs, and can more easily capitalize on fights with high downtime.

If Warrior is bursting for 33%+ more damage than Paladin is bursting for, balance dictates that at the end of a fight, Paladin should be dealing 2-3% more damage than Warrior, not 2-3% less.

Instead, Warrior gets to have its cake and eat it too. The imbalance is strongly in Warrior's favour.

Burst windows can help or hurt you as a warrior depending on when you burst. If you are able to cram a burst window in before boss or enemies become untargetable, you are recovering your burst cooldowns while everyone else is doing no dps anyway. It can go both ways.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Warrior deals more than "10-20% more" damage than Paladin during burst windows. Warrior bursts up to 8-10k in current gear, whereas PLD doesn't really get above 5-6k. That's 33% more if we highball PLD burst at 6k and lowball WAR burst at 8k.

Burst damage is more valuable than sustained damage, because it can be used to push phases/mechanics, has more synergy with raid buffs, and can more easily capitalize on fights with high downtime.

If Warrior is bursting for 33%+ more damage than Paladin is bursting for, balance dictates that at the end of a fight, Paladin should be dealing 2-3% more damage than Warrior, not 2-3% less.

Instead, Warrior gets to have its cake and eat it too. The imbalance is strongly in Warrior's favour.

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A reasonable argument, but its hard to say its absolute, as its very dependent on the fight.
but for the most part I can agree, as it's been the argument MCHs have been making for their high burst, but low sustain, all this time.

Jobs with high burst are always easier to optimise on. Consider that every job has access to infusions, and infusion windows are 30 s long. Content is designed around you being able to unload on the boss before running off to do a mechanic. You may not always be able to use your buff the instant that it comes up, but you will pretty much always be able to get to the maximum number of recasts.

WAR's design is like having both the best acceleration and the best top speed in Mario Kart.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Warrior deals more than "10-20% more" damage than Paladin during burst windows. Warrior bursts up to 8-10k in current gear, whereas PLD doesn't really get above 5-6k. That's 33% more if we highball PLD burst at 6k and lowball WAR burst at 8k.

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lol you get my point, no need to twist the word just to look smart because you really aren't. higher burst damage doesn't mean much because in the end PLD deal higher damage outside of it, in the end what you get is equal to a lowly 1-2% higher overall dps of warrior but that too only if everything goes your way. warrior isn't as "obscenely powerful" as you make them out to be in fact they're basically just paladin with less defense and less utility,
you just try to make them look that way because you're afraid if WAR and DRK get buffed they will challenge PLD for raid spot

It really feels like people are overplaying how weak Warrior is compared to PLD
They're pretty much neck and neck in all regards.
Who cares if you aren't the top tank DPS by the end of the fight? WARs identity has always been about extremely hard hits after a window of build up, which is does now. It has by far the highest burst of the tanks. It can't have the highest burst and the highest sustained while also offering all the defensive capabilities of a PLD. All that'll do is reverse the positions so WAR is the objective best.

Meanwhile DRK has the weakest party mitigation, the weakest burst and weakest sustained damage. DRK should be the only tank being talked about, WAR is completely fine.

Sidenote: Since when did people start complaining about WARs difficulty? All since 2.0 and 3.0 Wars seemed to accept that and say it's difficulty is one of the things that makes it funner to play, in comparison to the simple playstyle of PLD. Nothing's changed? PLD is still simple, WAR is still more difficult. Is it really just because WAR isn't, by the end of the fight, top DPS?...

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

It really feels like people are overplaying how weak Warrior is compared to PLD
They're pretty much neck and neck in all regards.
Who cares if you aren't the top tank DPS by the end of the fight? WARs identity has always been about extremely hard hits after a window of build up, which is does now. It has by far the highest burst of the tanks. It can't have the highest burst and the highest sustained while also offering all the defensive capabilities of a PLD. All that'll do is reverse the positions so WAR is the objective best.

Meanwhile DRK has the weakest party mitigation, the weakest burst and weakest sustained damage. DRK should be the only tank being talked about, WAR is completely fine.

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Every tank is within a couple % of each other. Being 'weakest' is a couple % in various areas under the next guy. You could rewrite that post but replace War with Drk and Pld with War. Every single tank thread on this board is pumping out hyperbole everywhere. All tanks are viable in all content. DPS is within a couple% across the board. Minor baby tweaks will bring everyone in line, and even if they do nothing, tanks are, objectively, in a passable spot (no extreme discrimination, all viable, within a few % of each other. Will not dramatically affect your in game experience). I get it. Everyone looks up the hill and sees the class shining above them. But when you realized that shining paragon on the hill is only 2 feet above, you realize its not that big a deal.

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Originally Posted by Crater

If Warrior is bursting for 33%+ more damage than Paladin is bursting for, balance dictates that at the end of a fight, Paladin should be dealing 2-3% more damage than Warrior, not 2-3% less.

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Balance dictates what, exactly? If war has lower utility than pld their dps should be higher because of balance, as well. That they get there through "burst" windows is just a coincidence of design. At the end of the encounter is what matters, not necessarily how they got there.

Burst is utility.