Is this what balance looks like?

No, I would say this is definitely not balance when you have over 26,000 RDM compared to 4,600 SMN and 30,000 BRD compared to 5,100 MCH. That is definitely broken.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

No, I would say this is definitely not balance when you have over 26,000 RDM compared to 4,600 SMN and 30,000 BRD compared to 5,100 MCH. That is definitely broken.

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Lol...what? There were less SMN and MCH even when they were super-OP in HW. You can't balance based on how many people "like" a class.

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Originally Posted by Dregenfox

You can't balance based on how many people "like" a class.

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Well but you can't take 30k vs. 5k or 26k vs 4k for a balanced statistic as well. so Northern is right - making a statement with that difference won't ever be near anything like balance. The number of users spoke for itself here.... there are reasons why people dislike smn/mch atm - and surely not just personal likings.

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Originally Posted by Neela

Well but you can't take 30k vs. 5k or 26k vs 4k for a balanced statistic as well. so Northern is right - making a statement with that difference won't ever be near anything like balance. The number of users spoke for itself here.... there are reasons why people dislike smn/mch atm - and surely not just personal likings.

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Pet classes/dot aren't an archetype that many players necessarily like...it's like comparing the pop genre to heavy metal...there's going to be a lot less people who like metal but that doesn't mean it sucks.

In any case there are QoL problems with summoner that has been acknowledged by the devs and are due for a change, but that doesn't necessarily make them an unbalanced class in terms of power.

While i don't argue that RDM and SAM are THE most forgiving DPS classes, i believe the player discrepancy will even out as the xpac carries on and their "newness" begins to wear off... i am hoping that, by then, we will have patched the other jobs to be even remotely competetive with them.

DRK is really too low compared to PLD.
It's interesting, that SMN is actually so high.

Is there a way to see how much utility actually contributes to the parse (example: how much Trick Attack boosts the damage of the whole group, or battle litany)?

Otherwise you can really say if things are balanced or not

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

DRK is really too low compared to PLD.
It's interesting, that SMN is actually so high.

Is there a way to see how much utility actually contributes to the parse (example: how much Trick Attack boosts the damage of the whole group, or battle litany)?

Otherwise you can really say if things are balanced or not

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Well for classes like ninja, it's fairly easy to estimate. Trick attack is ~1.5-1.6% to overall raid damage, which comes out to 400-500 DPS. Samurai is ~500-600 DPS ahead of ninja, so it's fairly equal. Basically need to decide whether that extra 1% dps from samurai is worth all the utility of ninja's aggro management, etc.

Actually ever since the very beginning of SB, Eirene Snow proved SMN had the same potential as every other class (in accordance with dummies requirements I must say), and the 4.06 pot gain increased it's power. It's good for the really skilled SMns, and a compensation for others, BECAUSE of the real problem with the class : not its power, but the skill cap necessary to achieve this potential, which is higher than for say RDM or SAM (and THAT's what a lot of people including me are ranting about).
Honestly you need perfection or you lose very much DPS for small mistakes, which means progression with it is more difficult than RDM : in RDM if you don't know the fight at all you can test it with a "braindead" rotation that is a loss, but not a tremendous loss in regards to the optimized one. In SMN, braindead rotation is 2500, max 3000 DPS (optimized is almost 5000).


Regarding the balance, I'd say like Stark we would need to analyse the logs and translate utility in DPS equivalence to see if all the bars come close. But I'm being lazy, and I agree with the evaluation of Dregenfox so... I'd say it's okay, for a non competitive game without rankings anyway.

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Originally Posted by Dregenfox

Lol...what? There were less SMN and MCH even when they were super-OP in HW. You can't balance based on how many people "like" a class.

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First of all - wut? SMN was the most popular DPS according to the official FFXIV census.
http://ff14net.2chblog.jp/archives/50236197.html

Second of all - Yes, you can. People don't like it for a reason and that is because it is disgustingly unbalanced and unfun to play.

For anyone who doesn't want to look, here are the DPS classes and their number of parses.
That's not balance, good lord.

Samurai 23,583
Black Mage 10,571
Monk 12,048
Summoner 4,629
Machinist 5,149
Dragoon 15,866
Red Mage 26,759
Ninja 20,624
Bard 30,063

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Originally Posted by Tsumdere

First of all - wut? SMN was the most popular DPS according to the official FFXIV census.
http://ff14net.2chblog.jp/archives/50236197.html

Second of all - Yes, you can. People don't like it for a reason and that is because it is disgustingly unbalanced and unfun to play.

For anyone who doesn't want to look, here are the DPS classes and their number of parses.
That's not balance, good lord.

Samurai 23,583
Black Mage 10,571
Monk 12,048
Summoner 4,629
Machinist 5,149
Dragoon 15,866
Red Mage 26,759
Ninja 20,624
Bard 30,063

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https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/13#dataset=99

SMN was also one of the least popular classes even in HW. Check the parses. BLM and SMN are unpopular right now because most switched to RDM since its the "new" class.

(also of note: machnist and bard back then had high utility and high DPS - it was not balanced at all).