Warrior MT at a disadvantage in O3S?

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

It's the furthest thing from a wash in 3. You should be swapping on adds to use invulns and in last phase it's pretty important to force swaps. Either way advantage goes to war.

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My point was you aren't gaining very much, since whoever is not tanking the boss is still going to be using CDs either way, so its not a net gain of mitigation.

Compared to a fight like A12S where the OT is a gimped DPS for the majority of the fight, unforced swaps there nearly double the available mitigation. But in O3S there are crit hits immediately before/during/immediately after almost every add, so it really doesn't matter if you swap, particularly if the WAR is MTing. You're not gaining mitigation that would have otherwise gone unused. If the MT gives the OT the boss, before the add, the OT is just gonna use the CDs or invulns they would have used on the add on the boss, and the MT is just going to use whatever CDs/invulns they would have used on the boss, on the adds. So that's why, relatively speaking, its a wash.

I hate to be one of those people who dismisses a long post that's taken a lot of effort with a single sentence... But WAR is at such an incredible advantage as MT in that fight that using a WAR to hold the boss from start to finish is probably roughly as effective defensively as if you were to have a DRK and PLD together utilizing frequent tank swaps to maximize cooldown usage. A negligible disadvantage on their tank stance versus PLD/DRK tank stances doesn't really even put a dent in that - particularly given that Thrill of Battle is actual effective mitigation versus Folio, whereas the other tanks sort of just have to focus on mitigating the followup attacks.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

You think so? Not sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious to know why tankswaps should be used for adds. Nobody on my server ever talks about having tankswaps.
The timing for my own cooldowns as MT works fine, Holmgang one Critical Tankbuster, then Rampart+Awareness the next. Alternate as needed.
For offtanking against adds, it's Vengeance + Inner beast against White Flame, Rampart + Inner Beast against Dragon, Vengeance + RI against Apanda, and I've reached the ninja+iron giant adds so few times I don't know what I'd normally do.
I don't see why you'd need to tankswap.

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You just said why yourself, you use ib while i dont ever have to be in defiance and never use a single ib for o3. Forced swaps make that possible.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

You just said why yourself, you use ib while i dont ever have to be in defiance and never use a single ib for o3. Forced swaps make that possible.

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You could do it even without forced swaps, easily. Holmgang every other buster, Awareness+Vengeance the rest.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Roughly as effective defensively as if you were to have a DRK and PLD together utilizing frequent tank swaps to maximize cooldown usage

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Still not sure why PLD is being lumped into this swapping idea. Bulwark + Awareness and Sentinel are enough for every Critical Hit. Hallowed is there if you are caught off guard and don't think you can hit Bulwark + Awareness in time or if healers are stressed. Rampart, Convalescence, Reprisal, and Passage are just sitting there to be used whenever you feel like being a gentleman to the healers.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

You could do it even without forced swaps, easily. Holmgang every other buster, Awareness+Vengeance the rest.

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You could yes but then you're just raw dogging a good portion of the fight which puts more strain on the healers and is just unnessicary. Tank swaps should be forced any time you are in a spot where you are running without a CD because u will need it later and your co Tank is sitting on one. Yes you can alternate super cd and hg for Crist the whole fight but for adds it's better to invulns both and last phase leaves one tank too setessed for cds to be optimal. I think the better thing to ask is why if you can would you not swap? You are only hurting your team by not.

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Originally Posted by Crater

I hate to be one of those people who dismisses a long post that's taken a lot of effort with a single sentence... But WAR is at such an incredible advantage as MT in that fight that using a WAR to hold the boss from start to finish is probably roughly as effective defensively as if you were to have a DRK and PLD together utilizing frequent tank swaps to maximize cooldown usage. A negligible disadvantage on their tank stance versus PLD/DRK tank stances doesn't really even put a dent in that - particularly given that Thrill of Battle is actual effective mitigation versus Folio, whereas the other tanks sort of just have to focus on mitigating the followup attacks.

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It's fine. I'm pretty sure my maths has some sort of issue with it, probably due to me throwing in too many estimated numbers. I feel like there's a problem for WAR facing the books phase, but the differences are fairly low, so maybe it's just me being wrong.

Honestly, that's why I put the question mark on the thread title. In case there was something I hadn't realised.

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Originally Posted by Dizzy_Derp

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Because adds are present and dealing high damage for a significant portion of the encounter, so you are, as I said, not gaining mitigation that would have otherwise gone unused. On a fight with minimal or no adds, absolutely, why not swap all day. But in O3S, even on DRK who's mitigation kit is questionable, I have CDs/invulns to survive every single crit without ever using Grit unless there is a death and the healers need some space to work with. If I can do it on DRK, WARs should be able to do it one-handed in their sleep. Believe me, I'm not trying to undersell the value of swapping even when the fight does not require it. Its amazing on almost any encounter other than O3S, particularly if you have a WAR MTing.

The adds hit hard enough that unless you're tanking them in Grit/Defiance/Shield, I can't imagine the OT ever "sitting on CDs" outside of the first phase of the fight, unless you're a WAR, in which case you should be MTing the entire thing as mentioned before, because they would not be "raw-dogging" much of anything considering that rotation leaves Raw Intuition, Thrill, and Rampart available to mitigate the damage that occurs in between the crits ezpz.

The only reason why there are swaps is because of Shirk bypassing tanks having to maintain aggro. You get away with just 1 aggro combo.

The only exception for this is o4s because Grand Crosses reset aggro.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Book: 61200*0.5 = 30600
Auto: 17000 (hits for full damage)
Book+Auto = 47600
Remaining HP: 61200 - 47699 = 13600 (22%)

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If your basic health is 51000, Defiance won't put you at 61200 but 63750 (+25% max HP)

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Auto: 10K
Book+2Auto: 25500 + 2*10000 = 45500
Remaining HP: 51000 - 45500 = 5500 (10.8%)

Auto: 13K
Book+2Auto: 30600 + 2*13000 = 56600
Remaining HP: 61200 - 56600 = 4600 (7.5%)

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If you take 13k with auto, then a PLD/DRK would take 10.4k for the same autos.

So, the calculations are :

PLD/DRK : 51000*0.5+2*10.4k = 25500+ 20800 = 46300. 46300/51000 = 91% health lost
WAR : 63750*0.5+2*13k = 31875+26000 = 57875. 57875/63750 = 91% health lost

Same results.