Request: Move all stances off the GCD, remove all mana/gauge costs, and buff Defiance

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Originally Posted by Launched

No thanks, homogenisation shouldn't be the first solution to balance problems less than a month into the expansion.

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Ah, the homogenization card. I knew it had to show its ugly, idea-silencing face somewhere.

The stances would still be very different in what they do. PLD's stances alter the way you generate gauge and its DPS stance does something completely different from that of the other two tanks. Grit/Gritless locks two different abilities with opposing effects and alters your mana generation. And WAR's stances are vastly polarized and provide completely different abilities and buffs to your damage and mitigation.

The stances are VASTLY heterogenous in how they do what they do, and what abilities/mechanics are gated behind them. Their ease of use is apparently the sole needed metric that you have for homogenization and I submit that that is a fallacious and wholly incomplete (and frankly, a little uncreative) view of a larger picture.

For your statement to hold water, xOath/Grit/Defiance-Deliverance effects would be as follows:

Shield Oath: reduces damage taken/dealt by 20% and increases enmity.
Defiance: reduces damage taken/dealt by 20% and increases enmity.
Grit: reduces damage taken/dealt by 20% and increases enmity.

Sword Oath: increases damage dealt by 5% while adding a 75 potency to each auto attack.
Deliverance: increases damage dealt by 5% while adding a 75 potency to each auto attack.
Gritless (now a stance): increases damage dealt by 5% while adding a 75 potency to each auto attack.

PLD: AAs/blocks/Holy Spirit generate gauge regardless of stance.
WAR: All beast gauge abilities usable regardless of stance.
DRK: BW/BP usable regardless of stance, Syphon Strike MP regeneration and Souleater self-heal identical regardless of stance.

Now ^that's^ homogenization.

I mean, some things SHOULD be homogenized. How easy it is to turn on your damn tank stance is one of those things. Another is if you even have a taunt ability, for example (finally fixed with 4.0. Thank you SE.) I think WAR/DRK players can appreciate that getting a native taunt was a good example of homogenization! Unless some of you are thinking the game was way better back when the only way to get Provoke was by leveling GLD?

Some things shouldn't be homogenized or there's no point in having multiple jobs. Right now PLD has a casting phase where they have to turret, that's quite different from the other two tank jobs that only have instant abilities. These kinds of details should be diverse and doing something to make the tank stance easier to use wouldn't change that diversity in any way.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

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I like and dislike your idea at the same time.

Yes, I agree stance dancing should be more fluent and rewarding.

But your suggestion would take some aspects of the job identities. Every stance dance would feel and play the same, monotonous.

The fact that shield oath and grit are GCD moves is because they buff your defense instantly (mana cost aside).
Moving them oGCD without mana cost would make them free mitigation CDs just as rampart on very short CD.

Some cost HAS to be involved: Defiance doesn't fill your HP pool based on %, Shield Oath costs 1 GCD and mana, and Grit does the same (higher mana cost here).

I wouldn't change stance dance for WAR, but for PLD and DRK as followed:

-Sword Oath changed to an oGCD move, yet Shield Oath remains a GCD. Shared recast time increased to 3 sec.

-Grit is an oGCD move. Recast time (to turn off) increased to 5 sec.

You still have to manage your mana and take other costs (decreased dmg/mana) for a few seconds.
Keep thier identity, yet make thier playstyle more fluent.

I would just be happy if the stances were off the GCD alone already. :)

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

The fact that shield oath and grit are GCD moves is because they buff your defense instantly (mana cost aside).
Moving them oGCD without mana cost would make them free mitigation CDs just as rampart on very short CD.

Some cost HAS to be involved: Defiance doesn't fill your HP pool based on %, Shield Oath costs 1 GCD and mana, and Grit does the same (higher mana cost here).

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I covered this in the OP:

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

-Buff Defiance so that you are healed, such that your current HP remains at the same percentage of your max HP, same as Thrill of Battle. This ensures Defiance provides instant mitigation through the HP buffer, giving it parity with Shield Oath and Grit.

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As an aside, I personally have always been vexed by Defiance's lack of instant mitigation being used as an excuse for Shield Oath/Grit being on the GCD. How do you even compare those mathematically? One tank sacrifices a tooth and the other two sacrifice an eye? One pays with apples and the others with oranges? One pays with mitigation, and only one way, and the others pay with DPS, both ways? o.O

And to be fair, your suggestion also doesn't do anything about the gauge cost of Defiance/Deliverance being a loose thread that unravels their laughably fragile rotation.

And as I said at the top of this page, the stances still buff your mitigation or damage in very different ways, and gate very different types of abilities and methods of resource management. Their costs being so out of balance is a Feelsbadman.

I think you missed my point. That is: Changing stance dances to no cost/disadvantage at all would take the whole mechanic (besides making it monotonous) of stances.

We ain't monks changing our stances every 3 sec. We are tanks who sacrifice our dmg for high mitigation, or high HP pool in WAR's case (cost might be recast time/mana/"wasted" GCD).

I also would be happy to have every stance oGCD, but pls keep those recast times (WAR) and mana costs (PLD/DRK). Managing those stances and their ressource costs is so much fun. (Stance dance gauge penality still sux tho, who even thought of this BS!?)

I don't think SE will remove the stance oGCD, we had this debate in 2.X where the only change they made to PLD & DRK was to not break there combo's. The player base wanted it like WARS was. So I am not sure how SE is going to address these abilities.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

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TBH, I always thought it was dumb you could turn your tank stance on and off again after just one GCD. It should mean something when you use your tank stance, like you're going to be in it for at least one combo (7s).

Your suggestion would do that so I would actually consider it an improvement on that end. And before people freak out about their Deeeeps, losing an entire GCD is still worse than 15-20% lost for 4.

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Originally Posted by eagledorf

TBH, I always thought it was dumb you could turn your tank stance on and off again after just one GCD. It should mean something when you use your tank stance, like you're going to be in it for at least one combo (7s).

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In heavensword, stance dancing as WAR triggered a cooldown between the stances that prevented someone from going back and forth immediately but I don't remember how long it was. ( I think PLD could swap back and forth as soon as the Global cool down finished but it would cost a bunch of mana again)

Not sure if the cooldown triggers for turning off a stance though.

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Originally Posted by ArianeEwah

We are tanks who sacrifice our dmg for high mitigation, or high HP pool in WAR's case (cost might be recast time/mana/"wasted" GCD).

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The reason you think this should be the case is because you're limited by your perspective of being a tank in FFXIV.

However, I'd argue that tank stances do not need a penalty. Defensive Stance in TERA never had a damage down penalty (also note that it buffs Endurance instantly, and it doesn't have a CD, but a 1k resolve cost, which is 2/3rd of the resolve bar). That being said, the mechanics were different. You were forced to stay in tank stance to hold aggro, and you lost a lot of needed mitigation without tank stance.

In my opinion, removing the tank stance damage penalty would only help the lesser skilled tanks as the pro tanks are already pulling and tanking in DPS stance. And I wouldn't necessarily say the mana cost or GCD cost of Shield Oath is a "fun" mechanic, but to each their own.

TL;DR My point is that the only reason tank stances (other than Defiance) cost a GCD because of their mitigation and the only reason tank stances have a damage down penalty is because SE thinks they should.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

In heavensword, stance dancing as WAR triggered a cooldown between the stances that prevented someone from going back and forth immediately but I don't remember how long it was. ( I think PLD could swap back and forth as soon as the Global cool down finished but it would cost a bunch of mana again)

Not sure if the cooldown triggers for turning off a stance though.

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https://web.archive.org/web/20160422.../wiki/Defiance

Yeah, 10s. I'm pretty sure it only triggered for turning on a stance.