How Would You Do... Summoner?

Maybe have egi appear from our books when we cast certain skills... give titans lb the heavy effect, and ifrits Aoe attack a burning dot.. as well as balancing garudas lb with ifrits...give us a reason to play with the other egi... some names of skills should be changed to reflect summoner and not some plague-mage...

Oh Almost forgot... as an addition to what I said above...

Because you end up with a good 3 hot bars worth of abilities by level 60... and all get used...

Shortening the Tri-Disaster CD to 30 seconds is probably a good idea to reduce the Icon spam on your Hot Bars.

Also things like that will make it easier on Console Players.

I like what lunar mentioned. I'd add though I suggested this in another thread, add egis for things like leviathan, ramuh, sephirot, shiva etc. When you use dreadwyrm trance graphically ruin III changes to a random egi appears every cast and does an attack. Damage is same as it was.

Some more minor suggestions that I thought of earlier;

Pet Damage is shown as if you did the damage yourself. This helps shows how much the pet directly contributes to battle compared to now, where their damage is hidden with the other players. If players don't like this due to it mixing their damage with the pet, maybe it could be an option in the character settings?

SMN skills get a minor nerf in damage (maybe 10%, possibly done as a trait) in exchange for higher Pet Damage, equaling about the same or slightly more to compensate for Pet AI (maybe also a pet move speed increase?). This is another change to make the pets a bigger part of your damage, a main thing that people want from "a better SMN", without giving SMN as a whole a straightline buff.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The challenge: be thorough. What, if any new mechanics would you create? How would you solve the “pet problem”? Will there be a reason we use books? Etc., etc.

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Where to begin...

1) Keeping the pets: Assuming we want to make pets relevant, there could be mechanics added that improve overall performance of the pet via actions taken by the master. Not stuff like Rouse, but more subtle and constant effects. For example, imagine if using Energy Drain increased an egi's damage dealt and attack speed by 20% for 45s. Part of optimal gameplay would thus require the SMN to learn to pace their use of Energy Drain so that the buff doesn't fall off. Ramp up mechanics could also work in this case as well (say that an egi deals increased damage on targets under the effect of your Bio, Bio II, and Miasma).

2) More pets: This has been a peeve I have with the direction the job was taken, since I still argue that SMN should at the least have the 6 main egis to correspond to the 6 main primals we fought in ARR. Each egi could and should have a different role and purpose. The downside to this is that gameplay currently doesn't require enough input from the player. We don't have adds that need to be CCd in raid fights. We don't have enemy abilities that must be interrupted in raid fights in order for you to get a clear. Shiva-egi could enter as a CC pet, Leviathan-egi could enter as an anti-caster pet, but without gameplay actually giving them any use, it'd be a wasted gesture.

3) Redesign: If we want trances, then the job needs to be built from the ground up for them. Currently it not only suffers from schizophrenic design, but also has needless overlap since you basically have two Aetherflow systems on top of each other. Turning Aetherflow into a resource to be generated by certain skills and then using that for trances or utility skills would be the way to go. I could probably do a write up for a complete trance-based SMN, but I don't have time for that at the moment.

There's also this.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Some more minor suggestions that I thought of earlier;

Pet Damage is shown as if you did the damage yourself. This helps shows how much the pet directly contributes to battle compared to now, where their damage is hidden with the other players. If players don't like this due to it mixing their damage with the pet, maybe it could be an option in the character settings?


SMN skills get a minor nerf in damage (maybe 10%, possibly done as a trait) in exchange for higher Pet Damage, equaling about the same or slightly more to compensate for Pet AI (maybe also a pet move speed increase?). This is another change to make the pets a bigger part of your damage, a main thing that people want from "a better SMN", without giving SMN as a whole a straightline buff.

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That as an example is something that won't work and will create a class imbalance issue... but when you play DPS classes you understand this.

Its what NOT to do.

Example here:
Why does the SMN come out so far ahead of the BLM in damage in higher level instances?

Well the BLM will be doing a large chunk of damage after 3 seconds. Say 6000 (not including thunder procs and fire procs, and not talking Enochian and Fire IVs)

The SMN meanwhile will be doing 2000 in DoTs and the pet will be doing 1000 in damage... while the SMN will cast a 3000 damage spell.

Seems balanced on the surface right?

So why does it come out so lobsided in the SMN's favor?

Because the BLM is stationary while doing damage, the SMN has free movement. So in ANY instance where there's heavy mechanics, which is just about all higher level instances... the BLM's Damage completely stops. While the SMN still has 3000 damage on target from Pet and DoTs. So suddenly at the end of the fight the SMN has outdamaged him by an enormous degree. The more you increase pet damage, the worse this will becomes. And then it starts to overshadow even OTHER DPS melee jobs who still will have to move at some point.

So the more damage you leave on the SMN the more controllable this is from a Class Balance standpoint.

The flipped side is... if you reduce this damage... then you start to affect the SMN OUTSIDE of instanced dungeons.

This is the real reason I suspect the SMN hasn't seen any new DoT additions since ARR either and likely will not see any more of them in the future.

Again the real reason you need to go with more Aetherflow stacks and controllable, balanceable powers the way Dreadwyrm and Deathflare are.

Now... without the movement, the BLM is going to come out on top in Single Target damage...

His Enochian and Fire IVs are doing more damage to a single target than your Deathflare/Teraflare.

You do one Deathflare... to his 4 Fire IVs. Deathflare though is AoE so hits multiple targets.... So it would be like us being able to do Deathflare 4 times in a row. It shakes out that because of this we end up being able to clear large armies of mobs due to the massive AoEs we have, but he COULD end up being that compared to the SMN in Single Target Boss Mobs. If not for the movement problems and massive amounts of mechanics at high levels. That's a Dev screw up though... not an actual Class Powers balance issue. The real issue to solve this is bringing Swiftcast, and Surecast to about 30 second CD or less for a BLM and making his Manashield able to absorb more damage if he has to stand in AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

2) More pets: This has been a peeve I have with the direction the job was taken, since I still argue that SMN should at the least have the 6 main egis to correspond to the 6 main primals we fought in ARR. Each egi could and should have a different role and purpose. The downside to this is that gameplay currently doesn't require enough input from the player. We don't have adds that need to be CCd in raid fights. We don't have enemy abilities that must be interrupted in raid fights in order for you to get a clear. Shiva-egi could enter as a CC pet, Leviathan-egi could enter as an anti-caster pet, but without gameplay actually giving them any use, it'd be a wasted gesture.

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Yeah that's why Pets or any new pets are a bad idea... and won't work either.

Summoner is a DPS job in this game. There's a reason only ONE summon ever gets used while the others are little more than benchwarmers...

Garuda has Contagion... for +15 seconds of Bio/Miasma/Bio 2 on your DoT casts... (Bio 40 per tick, Miasma 35 per tick, Bio II 35 per tick... for 5 ticks (15 seconds)) ... total Potency 550 in a BANE Area of Effect or AoE. Plus Aerial Blast 250 potency AoE.

Ifrit has Flaming Crush every 30 seconds... ie 110 potency or 220 potency every 60 seconds... and Inferno (Enkindle) for 300 potency in a cone...

Garuda = BANE AoE 550 potency attack (60 sec recast) + 250 potency attack (Enkindle, 5y circle) = 800 potency in attacks.
Ifrit = 220 potency (60 seconds) + 300 potency (Enkindle, 5y cone) = 520 potency in attacks

Its a no brainer as to why Ifrit sits the bench. Titan is a tank... so not usable unless the actual Tank goes down or DCs.

ANY NEW PET a summoner gets...

Their last two abilities will need to dish out at least 800 potency in attacks in 60 seconds... or they will be sitting the bench too. Which means then Garuda will sit the bench and never be used again.

At this time, the SMN is an AoE class designed to take out large groups of mobs. Both with DoTs and DDs. With Pets, Spells, and DeathFlares.

I always joke about how the Ninjutsu is going to have the primals come down and assist and be more like Summoners than the actual summoners. But I was thinking, you know how in the old games the summoners would disappear after summoning with orbs floating off and bringing down the summon. Why not give the summoners four commands like the ninja. It'd be Body, Mind, Soul, Evoke. And based on the order you'd get your summon.

Ifrit - AoE fire damage and burn status that lowers attack and a DoT
Titan - Linear Earth damage and defense boost to the party.
Garuda - AoE wind around the caster and group haste
Ramuh - Conal lightning damage and magical defense boost
Leviathan - Linear water damage and lowers magic defense
Shiva - Sweeping Ice AoE and lowers physical defense

And King Mog would be the fail and it does a random effect to both sides.

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Originally Posted by Heliantheae

Ifrit - AoE fire damage and burn status that lowers attack and a DoT
Titan - Linear Earth damage and defense boost to the party.
Garuda - AoE wind around the caster and group haste
Ramuh - Conal lightning damage and magical defense boost
Leviathan - Linear water damage and lowers magic defense
Shiva - Sweeping Ice AoE and lowers physical defense

And King Mog would be the fail and it does a random effect to both sides.

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Ahh and this is the REAL reason new pets won't work.

There's no difference between any elemental damage in the game... there's no elemental wheel... hence why ONLY the most damaging pet ever gets used...

And the SMN class is the DPS class... the SCH is the Support job...

Their abilities are neatly divided along those lines. Remember this is a dual class here... one side is the DPS... the other side is the Support. So when you start making the SMN the Support class... you begin taking away the roll of the SCH.

Remember there are TWO sides to the Arcanist... the DPS (SMN) and the Support class (SCH)

And when you start moving in that direction, you begin stepping on the toes of the SCH, whose job it is to shield and buff and heal. Many of those abilities would be excellent on an SCH, and I would suggest talking about Improvements to the SCH job like that over in the healer section.

Example here:

The SMN job DOES have access to debuffs like Virus, Physick, Ressurection, and Eye for an Eye... but they rarely get used on the SMN side at high levels because he's only DPSing.... they do get used by the SCH who is running a lot of healing, shielding, buffing abilities.

So any support abilities given to the SMN... end up stepping on the toes of the SCH... AND likely never get used by the SMN side which is concentrating on DPS only.

Rouse and Spur should increase pet size according to the buff, stacking as well so both would temporarily give you an impressive looking pet.

Dreadwyrm Trance should be summon IV, at 3 Aethertrail Attunement you instantly swap your current egi for Bahamut-egi. He lasts for 15s or until you use...

Enkindle II, replaces Deathflare, commands your egi to do their signature move, can only be used when Summon IV is in effect. Essentially Bahamut Deathflares instead of you.

Now, the numbers would have to be looked at very carefully re: Ruin III, the 10% damage buff, how much power Bahamut-ehi has, etc. but who seriously does not want to summon a mini-bahamut, make him grow in size with rouse and spur and then have him deathflare a big pack of enemies?

I'm hoping for a future in which the summon glamour system eventually looks like this:
Tank pet: Titan or Ramuh.
Melee pet: Ifrit, Shiva or Ravana.
Ranged pet: Garuda, Leviathan or Bismarck.
Ultimate pet: Bahamut, Alexander or Odin.

I'd make the ranged pet the AoE focused one, moving contagion to the summon and giving the pet a DoT than can be contagioned and baned. Melee pet would be the single target focus one, tank obviously staying much as it is and Ultimate obviously kicking ass in all scenarios really.

Got a few more things I'd change as well, but it's mostly just cosmetic changes and stuff about splitting SMN/SCH. Probably not be worth it unless they want to do large changes to SCH at some point.

E: Summon IV would have your current egi quickly wrap itself in a mini Dalamud that explodes to reveal Bahamut-egi. Because that would kick ass.