Yoshi P's Paladin Love

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Originally Posted by Faytte

I would do the following, to clemency and all Paladin 'spells'.

1) Make them not spells. This means they would scale off skill speed. Only paladins right now weirdly have role based actions that scale off different stats, one of which you cant get.

This would solve the issue of being interruptable, since it would behave like flash. Keep the mana the same (it costs a lot, I know, but I think this can be offset with higher mp gain from riot blade) and if treated like flash would cause it to be combo friendly.

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Actually DRK suffers also from the Spell Speed problem. Unmend, Unleash and Abyssal Drain all scale from Spell Speed, a stat you can't get as a tank. They are not casts, but still magic attacks. Since DRK can - and should - spam his aoe attacks in big pulls, and Skill Speed doesn't affect his aoe damage at all, it's maybe even worse for DRK than PLD ^^ or maybe not, at least DRK has aoe damage :x

And didn't had PLD an 100% block cooldown? I heared somewhere that when you are blocking, you can't get interrupted. So maybe it was intended to use that cd when you are casting a spell? However, removing the cast bars for PLD sounds like a good idea in general.

Give. Paladin. A. Gun.

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Originally Posted by Tint

And didn't had PLD an 100% block cooldown? I heard somewhere that when you are blocking, you can't get interrupted. So maybe it was intended to use that cd when you are casting a spell? However, removing the cast bars for PLD sounds like a good idea in general.

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Opposite. You can't block, dodge, or parry while doing anything that can be interrupted.
(Enemies can still miss, though, iirc, which now procs as a dodge, but there's no advantage from your actual Evasion stat at that time, only the enemy's lacking accuracy?)

Thus you can cast until Thordan's auto-attack goes off to ensure your Shelltron will auto-block the immediate following tank-buster instead.

staying in touch with the lore it would make sense that PLD of the three tanks should get more party utilities. The issue with current utilities is they become marginal as ilv increase. In contrasts AST's utility scales with ilv (in terms of dps directly). PLD needs skills that either directly affect party dps (wouldn't mesh with PLD lore..) or indirectly affect dps (thru sustainment, which is more in line with PLD lore). For example of indirect increase in dps: high ilv and skilled sch's can spend large portion of major fights in cleric stance b/c SCH is the best sustainment healer currently in game; all their skills scales with ilv; current meta DEMANDS a sch for top party composition. I would like PLD to offer something similar where of the 3 tanks its the weakest dps but thru party sustainment it can have a party dps increase comparable to Drk/WAR (also I wish they balance the tanks to where pld/drk become viable even if it has to offer something different..that's another topic).

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Originally Posted by Faytte

2) Shield Swipe should have its potency lowered, TP set to 0, made OGcD, given a 6 second CD.
3) The DoT From Circle of Scorn should stack up to three times. In addition, blocks should have a chance to reset CoS and set its casting cost to 0.
4) Moving between stances should be an OGCD that does not break combos.

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I like point number 4! Please SE take both drk and Pld tank stances of gcd and make it a cd like War's. I did not understand point number 2 or 3?? Shield swipe already cost 0 tp, is an ogcd....and gives a 6 sec debuff on mob (its a useless debuff.........since it works on zero bosses [dung or raid] and even on trash mobs it only effects 1 of the 6 to 8 mobs smashing into u........... SE FIX THAT....COMPLETELY USELESSSSS).

A potential fix to pacification off of shield swipe is: most bosses have a auto attacks, mini busters, and then the real tankbuster. make the pacification affect the mini buster, that would make pacification a VERY strong skill!! (maybe too strong...)

but back to point 3; what does it mean to have the DOT stack up to 3 times???

Removing the cast timer on PLD skill sound like a good functional idea for optimizing raid and what not; but PLD (being true to lore) is a mage tank... It wouldn't feel right if everything was instant like flash. Which isnt the case for DRK. These Dark magic skills--unmend, unleash, abyssal drain, dark passanger, salted earth----feel like they should all be instant; none of these skills given what they accomplish and their animation "feels" as if they should have cast time. Meanwhile Clemency being instant...feels weird?? Flash doesn't feel weird being fast b/c of its function (instantly blind the enemy and get their hate attention, u want that to be instant).

I still stand by the school of thought that casted abilities that require you to stop attacking, no matter how short the cast time, should not. be. given. to. melee. jobs. (this includes tanks)

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

I still stand by the school of thought that casted abilities that require you to stop attacking, no matter how short the cast time, should not. be. given. to. melee. jobs. (this includes tanks)

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rdm has melee attacks... and it's a caster; so if a caster can get melee, why can't a melee get caster abilities?? esp a melee who's lore demands it uses magic (i dare say casting magic).

But to your point PLD is the only tank shafted in this manner having a casting non-dps skill. Like i said in the OP SE needs to return us some bonus/benefit for losing out on a GCD (an auto attack worth of cure isn't really worth losing a gcd).

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Originally Posted by javid

rdm has melee attacks... and it's a caster; so if a caster can get melee, why can't a melee get caster abilities?? esp a melee who's lore demands it uses magic (i dare say casting magic).

But to your point PLD is the only tank shafted in this manner having a casting non-dps skill. Like i said in the OP SE needs to return us some bonus/benefit for losing out on a GCD (an auto attack worth of cure isn't really worth losing a gcd).

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I have to disagree with that. PLD's self-healing capabilities both in burst and over time are strong compared to the other two.

The issue, as far as I can see, is much like that of DRK's highest potential mitigation over time CD, DA-DD; it's not entirely reliable, and it has anti-synergy with other parts of the toolkit.

I'd be okay with it not interrupting combos though; perhaps the mana cost and lost of GCD time ought to be enough to make it an "emergency" ability already.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

snipp

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WARNING LOTS OF READING

NOt to be offensive, but you're wrong. SELF-SUSTAINING is a matter of fact; you either can do it or u can't. I'll do a lil bit of heavy lifting to demonstrate why pld is tied for last at self sustaining itself, but I have an easy test for you if you have access to each lvl 60 tank. Go into diadem and solo a tier one mob (any tier 1 mob not in fate). Even with max gear you will be only be able to self sustain yourself with only one tank....WAR and WAR alone.

Now here is how PLD stacks up...

PLD self's CD

HALLOWED GROUND- 7min CD, 10 sec active, complete immunity; this is PLD's bread and butter when it comes to negation during it's up-time, yes it's the best in game... but compare to it's effectiveness (up-time/recast) and it becomes dead last in what it's achieving with it's only perk being it doesnt need a subsequent heal/benediction to be a complete skill the way Holmgang and Living Dead do. In direct comparison to WAR though, War doesn't need 100% HP after any use of HG. WAR just need "enough" HP to not die from whatever mech is next (whether it be an auto attack an AOE or combination) so the complete immunity of a PLD's HG while being the best form of immunity in game, functionally WAR's HG is more proficient in its effective usage. We'll still make PLD win over the two other tanks in this self sustaining aspect. Let's move on.

SHELTRON- 10 sec buff that guarantee ONE block every 30s, and a regen MP of 707 mp- so basically 1 blocked attack at 20% mitigation every 30 sec... can we just agree this one doesn't do much in SELF-sustaining? The MP regen is small (707mp/30SECONDS ) and 20% mitigation on ONE physical attack every 30 sec isn't by itself gonna do much.

CONVALESCENCE - 20 sec buff of 30% additional healing received on a 2min cd. Again great skill! by it self does nothing for self sustaining but we'll talk more about it come Clemency.

CLEMENCY- now I already started the OP with it's issues but lets ignore all the issues and just consider it's effectiveness. 1200 potency cure, cost 2121 mp, cast time of 2 seconds. Keep in mind your MP pool at lvl 60 is 5188. So you can get 2 cast of clemency then you need to regen mp. let's bring sheltron back in this conversation. Sheltron recovers 707 mp every 30 seconds and riot blade recovers 442 mp every 24 secs (unless you a scrub spamming riot blade.... ppl trust me these kinds of tanks exist); while in combat you recover ~2% mp/tick (103 mp/3 sec). Let's just assume you have sheltron + riot blade (a once every 24 sec skill) all lined up RIGHT after using clemency at least once, after one battle mp regen tick, you'd get enough mp regen to cast one more Clemency before you were completely mp dry. And this is assuming you don't flash or Stoneskin. so for the sake of getting an complete effectiveness of this skill, we'll say 3 uses then we regen from scratch until we can do 3 more.

This is you're complete MP regen ability: 707mp/30s + 103mp/3s + 442mp/24s = 228mp/tick (note: 3s= a tick) it would take 228mp/tick, 28 ticks to get at least 6363 mp (3 clemencies ); 28 ticks is 84 secs. Now the recast of a triple Clemency isn't just 84 sec but you have to add the cast time of each as well (and keep in mind we cheated to even use 3 in the first place....) so the total recast time is 6sec+ 84 sec to use 3 Clemencies. That's an effective potency 1200 healing potency/30 sec!! Which sounds decent!?? Now also consider convalescence buffs that potency by another 30% every 2min which is an effective 5% healing buff over time so that pushing clemency to 1260 potency/30 sec! That sound really cool... [it's decent ish...] DRK has no direct comparison to Clemency. Souleater is too weak...you'd have to use all 3 dark arts to get 1200 potency over at least 3 combos. But WAR has Equilibrium which at least half the potency of *cheating* clemency potency/30 sec. YET we'll give the Prize to PLD here as well over the 2 others in this single ability!

RAMPART-20 sec of 20% mitigation over a 90 sec cd. Decent skill matched by Shadowskin from DRK and Raw Intuition** by WAR.....next

RAGE OF HALONE - 10% strength down for 20 sec. it can be kept up indefinitely. It's only for physically attacking mobs. WE assume that STR directly impact attack power the ways it does for MNK and DRG... if that assumption is WRONG??? then this skill is less effective than the other tank's reduction Weaponskills. Delirium is the magic version of Halone but useless if u have a mnk*. Meanwhile Storm's Path is still king of them all: 10% flat reduction [magic & physical] and a 125 potency heal (self-sustaining aspect)

SENTINEL- 40% mitigation for 10 sec over 3min. in terms of instant mitigation, it's the best of the 3 tanks!!! But in terms of effectiveness it's a DISTANCE second place behind WAR. EFFECTIVENESS: Vengence* > > sentinel > Shadow Wall.

BULWARK - 60% chance of block for 15 sec over 3min cd. Let's calculate this one a lil differently in favor of PLD. This skill effectiveness is dependent on how fast or slow the mobs attack and activation timing! But let's be nice. Assume a mob hits every 3 sec then the effectiveness of this ability is 20% mitigation for 9 sec (15sec * 60% = 9 sec) over 3min recast . Effectively that's 60% mitigation/min; or to keep it in terms of 20% mitigation, that 20% mitigation for 3 sec every 60 sec. Compare that to DRK's dark dance without Dark Arts and Bulwark will win!! HOWEVER, Add Dark Arts NOT EVEN CONSIDERING EVASION (and yesss evasion works in raid!!! not reliable but it works!) and you effectively get 20% mitigation for 6 sec over 60 sec (twice that of Bulwark not even considering evasion). Now to introduce the KANG*....INNER BEAST.....simply placing the name up here should make PLD and DRK go #$*@ing sit down..... but let's get into it a lil bit. If you're not using fracture it takes 8 GCDs to get 5 stacks of wrath and since you have to actually execute the attack that a total of 9 GCDs per INNER BEAST (with fracture every 30 sec it would take 10 gcds to execute IB*). so assume 2.5 sec per gcd * 9 gcds = 22.5 total seconds. Let's make it an effectiveness over 60 sec. That's like 20% mitigation for 16 sec!!! over 60 sec recast (more than twice that of dark dance with dark art and more than 5 times..that of bulwark). Now keep in mind I didn't discuss that you get free wrath from berserk, vengeance, & raw intuition...lulz. Also I didn't factor in the self sustaining aspect of a 300 potency cure that scales with dps and I didn't mention Infuriate.... WAR wins too easily in these 3 skill comparion with PLD in last place
(INNER BEAST >>> dark art + Dark Dance > Bulwark).

FLASH - blinds* for 12s; Blind unlike evasion ONLY works on dung TRASH mobs....so regardless of its effectiveness it utility as mitigation is lulz, everything considered. However it only has one direct comparison and that's Dark Passenger with Drk Art. But!!! if you want to cheat only WAR can cross class Featherfoot at 12% evasion for 15 sec over 90 sec recast and YES evasion (though unreliable) does work in all content. With the cheat for WAR, that puts WAR> PLD> DRK in terms of effective mitigation for these skills. (note: without knowing exactly how evasion and blind reduces the chances of mobs hitting you its impossible to compare blind and evasion)

we'll skip Bloodbath & Foresight b/c those 2 are WAR native skills and WAR makes the best use of them both-- more effective up time on both and being the highest dps of the 3 tank classes makes best use of Bloodbath (and Bloodbath goes well with vengeance).

Moral of the story............we just went thru allll that just to show CD for CD PLD is barely second in CD effectiveness LET alone self sustaining ability (the ACTUAL subject). PLD is tied for last AND We didn't even get to WArrior's thrill of BAttle.. instant 20% of max HP every 2min, scales with defiance.... And WAR is the only tank that can access Second wind 650 potency cure every 2min....

WARRIOR is the clear king of self sustainment. It's not even close (I for one think WAR is broken....a broken I love....but both other tanks need more loving ESP PALADIN!!!)

NOTE: Sheltron makes a better comparison to Inner Beast and Dark Dance than Bulwark; Sheltron is still LAST among the 3 skills (on average if you include the effect of evasion)