Warrior Suggestion

the trick is .... that every tank should be able to tank kinda everything.

so ... well ... Balance is quite a Thing here.
yet, Paladins have better Defense, while Warriors can heal themselfs better. One could improve those Aspects, but then, the Balancing of Bosses would become impossible again.

And ... without a Healer, making them kinda useless ... well, that can't be the goal, considering that they want to do something else than DMG too...

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Non-percentage based mitigation leads to small viability sweet spots on the immortality curve.

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Percentage based max HP/healing received increase would do perfectly fine.

Just giving the healing boost to Defiance itself would have saved WAR from lot of crap in 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Percentage based max HP/healing received increase would do perfectly fine.

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-X% damage taken and +X% max hp/healing received are two sides of the same coin and are both forms of percentage based mitigation.

Thrill of Battle+Convalescence is effectively a -16.6% damage cooldown and Rampart is effectively a +25% MaxHP/healing received cooldown.

They could have made Inner Beast increase MaxHP/healing received by +25% and Vengeance a +42.8% MaxHP/healing received cooldown to the same end effect.

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Just giving the healing boost to Defiance itself would have saved WAR from lot of crap in 2.0.

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It would have prevented the conflict about using Wrath stacks, but the mitigation from the Inner Beast, Vengeance, and Storm's Path changes was needed also.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

-X% damage taken and +X% max hp/healing received are two sides of the same coin and are both forms of percentage based mitigation.

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Yes, they are....yet, for the most part, all tanks are using the first side. WAR has only one CD working with its max HP...and Convalescence is not even a MRD skill...

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It would have prevented the conflict about using Wrath stacks, but the mitigation from the Inner Beast, Vengeance, and Storm's Path changes was needed also.

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I'm not sure WAR really needed all of them. Especially it they really wanted PLD to be defined by its mitigation.

The problem is that you have two ends to tank value: personal scaling and reactive scaling. The first outperforms the second in outgeared content, and underperforms in progressive content.

In other words, the portion of your own stats, as dealt through vampirics like Life Surge, Bloodbath, Soul Eater, and Inner Beast will eventually outdo the portion of enemy stats reduced by percentile mitigation tools, at which point the only advantage to mitigation tools is, typically, better window control and one-shot resistance. And until then, the other will outdo it.

By "theming" a toolkit on purely one or the other, as ARR originally did with WAR and PLD, you niche the content to which they can be taken, e.g. progressive content and past content.

Making Warrior more dependent on its self-healing would be fine if and only if the resource that feeds that self-healing also depends on input (on enemies) such that the job is generally about as input-dependent as the others, with duly roughly equal output.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It would have prevented the conflict about using Wrath stacks, but the mitigation from the Inner Beast, Vengeance, and Storm's Path changes was needed also.

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I don't think these mitigation tools were needed, and that's actually part of my problem with Warrior currently. They have so many damage mitigation tools now that they just feel like a Paladin that does more damage. They could easily distinguish Warrior from the other tanks by giving them survivability through +X% healing received as someone said above and then converting their damage to healing. They would also need a larger health pool to compensate for the lack of mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Making Warrior more dependent on its self-healing would be fine if and only if the resource that feeds that self-healing also depends on input (on enemies) such that the job is generally about as input-dependent as the others, with duly roughly equal output.

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In ARR, WAR had a much higher skill ceiling (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "input") in order to be as effective as Paladin, which I was completely fine with because while it took more skill to perform the same, a top tier Warrior was able to bring FAR more to the table that a top tier Paladin in content that didn't absolutely require a Paladin in the first place. I wish to God they would bring back the ARR feel of Warrior without breaking the game or making it obsolete in certain fights. And let's not forget that even today Warrior is obsolete in certain niche fights (Zurvan Ex 1-tank strat for example). So even the current design has its viability flaws.

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Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken

And let's not forget that even today Warrior is obsolete in certain niche fights (Zurvan Ex 1-tank strat for example). So even the current design has its viability flaws.

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That is because Zurvan EX is badly designed fight not because Warrior has viability flaws. The only reason Paladin and Dark Knight can cheese Demon's Claw+Wave Cannon and Warrior can not is because Hallowed Ground and Living Dead are 10s and Holmgang is 6s and 10s is long enough to cover both Demon Claw and Wave Cannon. If the gap between Demon Claw and Wave Cannon was a few seconds longer none of the tanks would be able to cheese the mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken

In ARR, WAR had a much higher skill ceiling (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "input") in order to be as effective as Paladin, which I was completely fine with because while it took more skill to perform the same, a top tier Warrior was able to bring FAR more to the table that a top tier Paladin in content that didn't absolutely require a Paladin in the first place. I wish to God they would bring back the ARR feel of Warrior without breaking the game or making it obsolete in certain fights. And let's not forget that even today Warrior is obsolete in certain niche fights (Zurvan Ex 1-tank strat for example). So even the current design has its viability flaws.

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I'm pretty sure what they meant by "input", since they designated "enemies", was the damage taken by the WAR as opposed to damage dealt by the WAR.

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Originally Posted by Thatusernameistaken

In ARR, WAR had a much higher skill ceiling (I'm assuming that's what you mean by "input") in order to be as effective as Paladin, which I was completely fine with because while it took more skill to perform the same, a top tier Warrior was able to bring FAR more to the table that a top tier Paladin in content that didn't absolutely require a Paladin in the first place. I wish to God they would bring back the ARR feel of Warrior without breaking the game or making it obsolete in certain fights. And let's not forget that even today Warrior is obsolete in certain niche fights (Zurvan Ex 1-tank strat for example). So even the current design has its viability flaws.

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I tanked First Coil and most of my roulettes as Warrior in 2.0 (including many a 3-dps, Warrior-is-its-own-heals-damnit AK run). I'm aware of the differences. But no, that is not what I mean by "input", nor do I see how the skill ceiling was any higher in 2.0 than post-buff, even if I did prefer elements of the 2.0 gameplay.

What I mean by "input" is the values received that could, depending on toolkit, have an effect on output, such as one's stats, one's healing taken, one's mitigation dealt, and one's damage taken. Essentially, everything but "output". In this case though I'm specifically weighing external input (mob stats) vs. internal input (stats). [If you wish to look at it simply, input is environment-based, and output is self-and-party-based, as heals are necessary to the equation of Warrior's strengths.] If the tank does not scale well with external input (e.g. percentile of damage taken), then it can only be truly balanced for a thin transcient moment. Until that point, he is inferior in progression (or hard-hitting fights in general) because the tanks better benefiting from external input (those with more percentile mitigation, as opposed to the Warrior's flatter or personally-based self-healing) will have higher overall output; after that point, he will be overpowered in that his benefiting more greatly from his own gear, which exceeds the strength of the mobs being tanked, will outperform the benefits of greater use of the damage dealt by enemy mobs (who are now becoming obsolete).

Again, you can make it more reactive and less preparative, as it was in 2.0. You can also make it face more compromise and decisions therefrom, as it did in 2.0. But you probably won't be able to bring back the no-heals-required aspect, and you certainly can't afford to leave it as imbalanced over time as it was in 2.0.