Topically to this, I had a 72 Shatter match today where we lead hard at the beginning but got double-team spawn camped into 3rd place right at the end by a truce between the opposing two GCs.
We had someone else taking leader duties the whole match (directions in /alliance chat, callouts, etc), so I was reluctant to impose my own directions. But after a strong start it totally broke down at the end: the leader called us all back to spawn, and then... seemed to just kind of give up and stop saying anything or even moving until the match ended.
The other 23 players (including me) basically just stood around our spawn point paralyzed, watching the opposing GCs sit on our control point and stare us down, until the match expired.
I wanted to do more, but I'm still fairly inexperienced and also not used to 72 pops (I play at odd hours and usually get 24s). I didn't want to risk instructing my team to do something hopeless and just lead them into a slaughter (been there and done that a few times now).
What is a better response to the situation of being spawncamped in a 72-player Frontlines when the rest of your team seems dazed and panicked and needs a plan?
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06-28-2016, 10:27 AMEorzean_username
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06-28-2016, 10:33 AMStormrider
I am not sure there is a better response. Focus and try to reposition. You can't make it to the other spawn if you have already been pushed back. Nothing like a train of 1 player at a time trying to make a run for it.
I have always wondered if you had enough of a lead you could just wait till the other 2 start killing each other and then push. Nothing like dps to lose focus and try to get that other ninja that's almost dead. -
06-28-2016, 11:10 AMKfLeX
Yup, I was totally in that match with you. We had a good lead then it went down hill fast at the end at our base.
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06-28-2016, 11:41 AMThekkFrom my experience (Primal Adders), if you actually call shots that make sense a good portion of the alliance will listen. Sure you won't get everyone, but it's usually enough to do something. It just takes someone willing to do it. If there's nobody on your team calling shots, give it a try. Just keep it simple: give a warning when crystals are about to spawn, link the position when a big crystal spawns, point out when it is a good time to steal an outpost, remind people of which company is in the lead that they should be focusing on, but don't fret about every small crystal and know when it's time to go in or to stay away (don't get flanked!). Bad calls will happen and people might get angry about them. Don't give up, but make sure to learn from your mistakes and avoid making them again.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazedtoo
Of course, you'll get the odd game where people won't listen and just want to fight a specific company over and over even though they're in last position, but those make a small minority. Sometimes it won't even matter what shots you call because the difference in firepower is just too big. But those times you win and you know your calls made a difference are much more satisfying. -
06-28-2016, 12:32 PMThekkHonestly, the only answer to that is to be prepared. You know it's coming, you have to make your move before it happens. Send a few people to capture their outposts before you have lost your own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eorzean_username
If both of the other companies are stupid, they will come through the middle, so try to hold them in the choke point in front of your outpost instead of falling back to it right away: they might end up weakening themselves before getting to you and any time you save gives you more points. If they're smart, one of them will come from the side. In that case try to defend your outpost as long as you can and make sure people stand inside the circle as much as possible to prevent capture. Your healers are going to dictate how long of a stand you can make. The worst thing you can do is dying. If you're getting overwhelmed, fall back and let them have your outpost. They'll usually start fighting each other and you'll be able to sweep back in and get some kills, and sometimes that's all you need to get the last few points you were missing.
Now, if you're simply getting crushed in a fight and can't get out of your spawn, well I'm sorry, you probably didn't deserve to win in the first place. It might have been luck with the spawns or the other companies just ignoring you for too long. It is a PvP match after all, so it only makes sense that some fighting would settle the winner. -
06-28-2016, 02:20 PMEorzean_usernameThat's really rude, but on the other hand, I kind of can't argue when I think about that match, since I found myself wondering multiple times why we were in 1st place given our behavior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thekk
ie, We fled from every skirmish, no one focused targets or healers, in engagements everyone spread out like a cloud of gnats instead of staying tight around the healers, we didn't seize enemy outposts while they were bickering in midfield, we were bullied off any Large Ice we didn't reach early... etc.
Maybe spawn camping is just nature's way of telling a team they need to step it up. -
06-28-2016, 08:02 PMThekkI know my point of view might sound harsh for some people, and I'm sorry if my phrasing sounded offensive to you, that was not my intention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eorzean_username
It just feels that since it's PvP, fighting should at least play a part on the output rather than who can put the most dps on crystals then just run away the best. If you actually have a upper hand in fights during the match, your lead will be bigger and the other companies won't even have the time to mount an assault because you'll already have nearly won by the last crystal. Basically, points from the crystals and outposts by themselves won't be enough to win, you'll have to fight at some point and it's either going to be during the match or at the end if you run away from it. It's a matter of choosing the right ones, and waiting for the end rarely is the good option. -
06-28-2016, 10:10 PMEorzean_usernameSorry, no, you're fine and I appreciate the blunt advice. I meant it more like "Ouch, that bruised my ego, but you make a good point". The tone probably didn't translate into text properly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thekk
I admit I feel frustrated by my own sense of failure to the team when I can't dig it out of a mess like that, or even think of anything to suggest in /alliance. I'm more comfortable in 24s; in 72, as 1/24th of a dysfunctional blob it can feel difficult to really practice or learn effectively.
But yeah, at first I was like "Why did the mean people box us into spawn, how do we fix it?" And then you made me reflect on it, and it was more like: "Hm, maybe they boxed us into spawn because we deserved it" — in the sense of having a flimsy battlefield presence already during the match. It was probably a smart tactical call on the side of the other teams. -
06-29-2016, 06:52 AMBeckettThis happened to me yesterday. Our team was in a pretty solid first after all the crystals were down, so of course both the other teams came to our camp. Someone did eventually say that we should go cap Adder's point, but by that time it was too late. If we had reacted immediately, we could have capped Adder's camp, then when Mael and Adder inevitably started fighting each other, we could have come in for a pincer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thekk
I'm betting that the end-of-match spawn camping will get easier to handle over time, as people learn these tactics. There are three exits out of all of the spawns, which means you always have options. -
06-29-2016, 09:49 AMThekk
A bit of napkin maths:
- The map has 4 big crystals (300 points each) and 18 small crystals (70 points each) for a total of 2460 points, or an average of 820 per team.
- Outposts give 2 points every 3 seconds (or 40 per minute). The last crystal spawns with 8 to 10 minutes left and usually gets destroyed within 2 minutes. 14 minutes of uninterrupted control of an outpost will net you 560 points.
That means that you would potentially have 1380 points if you got your fair share of crystals and didn't fight at all. That leaves you with 420 points to get somewhere else.
There are 3 options for that:- Getting more points than the other companies from crystals. However, given their spread around the map, it is highly unlikely you'll reach 1000.
- Control enemy outposts. You could get one or two hundred points for holding them for a couple minutes while other companies are fighting for the furthest big crystal. However, you could lose your own as easily over the course of the match.
- Kills. You get 10 points per kill and lose 5 per death. If your team is average and you kill as much as you die, that will net you 5 points per kill. At that ratio, 84 kills would be enough, but the winning company almost always has more kills than deaths and in turn needs less than that. You would actually need to die twice as much to break even.
With that in mind, we can draw the following conclusions- It is very unlikely you will reach a high enough amount of points strictly from the PvE objectives. As such, I feel people underestimate how important the PvP aspect actually is.
- If you sit on the side while no crystals are active and watch the other 2 companies fight to a stalemate, they are actually getting more points than you are.
The morale of the story is you're not going to win without a fight, so avoiding it is pointless. However, you have to pick the right moments. There is plenty of time to do between big crystals since they spawn every 4 minutes and usually get destroyed within 2. You don't need to send your whole team for small crystals, so the rest of it should pull its weight. Just don't get into a fight with one company while letting the other get a big crystal for free. Tunnel vision is bad.