To be honest, Alex Savage is a failure.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

The other part of this, the story, is a problematic issue. Its a valid issue but as Yoshi himself said, because only a very small portion of the Playerbase that actually ever cleared coil, return on investment is rather small for the resources put in to produce it. Its a difficult fix. A lot of players were unhappy that they never had the opportunity to see the Coil story because they either didn't have the timetable to allow for being in a static or didn't have the skill to clear the content. Perhaps a solution could be for Savage raids to open up access to details or side stories tied to the raid. Rather than being the only source of the story, Savage fleshes the story out, telling details you don't see in the original.

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This is why they eventually nerf coil to the point that you can PF or even DF it, and honestly at that point if you haven't cleared the turns you've probably didn't care enough to PF it in the first place. Designing content for players isn't simply as clear cut as having a high amount of clear rate or participation (because if 3.0-3.1 was anything to go by, small servers were extremely devastated by transfers because of raiding that no matter the future raid content like midas, the population simply isnt there for a healthy raid environment anymore). You're looking at the clear rates of coil, what about the clear rates of savage in relatively the same time? The lack of incentive is relatively a smaller problem in the grand scheme of things compared to accessibility when it comes to your typical statics.

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Originally Posted by Suirieko

Only one I didn't like was turn 3 and 4 for obvious reasons.

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Turn 3 was great.
A race to the finish, trying to counter-step friends into bouncing the wrong way on the pad. Oh the good times.
We need more Turn 3's.

Part of why Coils was so epic is because that single raid had an entire back story which was FFXIV 1.0.

There was the story progression from Dalamud, Nael Deus Darnus all from 1.0. Then there was a huge lul period while 2.0 was being built for the whole story of Bahamut to stew within players. Then 2.0 finally came and we got further development and actual Raid content about Bahamut etc. That content/story was locked behind the most challenging content.

I don't think anything else in this game has a chance to compete with something like that ever. I mean how could it? The players desire to do Coils was driven by the story from a whole other game's climactic ending, a 1 year wait, and then an epic story that could only be found by completing the most difficult content.

Personally I don't mind if they add unique gear to incentivize Savage but I sincerely hope they never put unique story into it.
I only got past t9 and up in Coil thanks to unsync and the relic quest making the Poetics bonus desirable again in Heavensward and I much prefer getting to see the story as it comes out with the normal mode.

As for Coil story versus Alex story I agree that Coil was more epic but as Judge_Xero said Coil had so much buildup to it that it would be almost impossible for SE to match it. I think that Midas was an improvement to Gordias because it embraced the silly side of the Goblins more making it entertaining in a different way to Coil.

The story doesn't mean anything because it's completed in 5 minutes.

If you wanted to see Coils story you NEEDED to complete each turn and honestly that wasn't a bad thing at all. It made people actually have to work to get to see an amazing story. This is wha Alexander is lacking, a drive to complete it for something. Having a reskin/dye version of the same gear with a stupid high item level is nothing amazing. And to the people who will complain and cry because they can't see the story well either buck up and put the work in or wait for nerfs/unsync to be a thing.

But sadly we live in a time where everything is ME ME ME!!! I WANT WANT WANT!!! THEY HAVE WHAT I WANT THAT TOO GIVE ME IT NOW!!! (Almost all of xivs community)

A: Fun is subjective. What you find boring others find quite entertaining.

B: Aesthetics is subjective. What you find visually unappealing, someone else finds quite appealing.

C: The devs have said they didn't like the fact that few people got to experience the story of Coil. That's why there is a normal mode of Alex. Hiding the story behind a monumental wall of skill like Coil did, in a game where the story told is it's main selling point, was a counterproductive design from the get go.

In the end, it sounds like you are only experiencing raider's fatigue and need a break for awhile.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

A: Fun is subjective. What you find boring others find quite entertaining.

B: Aesthetics is subjective. What you find visually unappealing, someone else finds quite appealing.

C: The devs have said they didn't like the fact that few people got to experience the story of Coil. That's why there is a normal mode of Alex. Hiding the story behind a monumental wall of skill like Coil did, in a game where the story told is it's main selling point, was a counterproductive design from the get go.

In the end, it sounds like you are only experiencing raider's fatigue and need a break for awhile.

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That's because they have no backbone and give in to every little demand. And of course money so if they lose players they lose money.

During my time, raiding in Alexander. I enjoyed running A3S,A6S,and A8S. It very unique fight which I like the most right now in Alexander series.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Part of why Coils was so epic is because that single raid had an entire back story which was FFXIV 1.0.

There was the story progression from Dalamud, Nael Deus Darnus all from 1.0. Then there was a huge lul period while 2.0 was being built for the whole story of Bahamut to stew within players. Then 2.0 finally came and we got further development and actual Raid content about Bahamut etc. That content/story was locked behind the most challenging content.

I don't think anything else in this game has a chance to compete with something like that ever. I mean how could it? The players desire to do Coils was driven by the story from a whole other game's climactic ending, a 1 year wait, and then an epic story that could only be found by completing the most difficult content.

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1.x was just better in general, for me anyway. Better game play (well 1.23) better story, better everything lol...except the server lag. And yeah I agree with OP.The second I stepped into savage turn 6 and saw that we could not pass faust without forcing to healers to dps AFTER Yoshida made a LONG post in depth about how it will not be DPS checks and about mechanics...and well thats the FIRST thing I see? I told them right then and there I am done, replace me. I am tired of playing this game where they expect a healer to do damage. I am SMN main btw...but I still think its absolutely idiotic to have a healer do damage. It is not challenging, its not difficult (because we passed it easily)

I do not like the raiding in this game at all...Coil was great, FCOB was my absolute favorite...but yeah we need more then 4 bosses with a square or circle arena. zzz

Well, as it stands, the main point in doing Savage is the challenge. Sure, you also get the best gear currently available, but that's a side thing. This means that only people interested in challenging themselves will be inclined to do the content. If this is a failure, that means challenging content as such is a failure and the last thing you want to do is to incentivize a failure - ideally, you want to discontinue support to allocate ressources to something successful instead. So I'd be careful with calling it that. It's a niché appeal like chocobo racing or Lord of Verminion and should be treated as such - with semi regular, low cost updates that befit its appeal.

Seriously. From the point of view of a content designer, I'd seriously ask myself why I should even develop content that needs to be immensely incentivized to even be cleared once. Might as well not bother and create something fun instead.

Encounter design is a different thing of course - that might be lacking. I wouldn't know. But the system as such, yeah...most people just argue against what they likely intent without even realizing it.