Tank behavior in duties, brings lots of ???

For those who suggest kick. That's a vote kick abuse. You cannot kick someone for not being skilled. That's terrible unfair and can be reported.

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Originally Posted by pikster

If they are actually harrising your, AFK or Offline, go ahead and kick but poor play is not one of the options, nor is "I think they might be trolling"...

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If they are asked to use a move, say they will, then they don't until someone dies, and then they spam said move over the dead body... that's harassment. Directly and purposely making the game worse for others, it doesn't get much more cut and dry than that. If a healer was asked to use cure, they said they will, then they just let the tank die, and then stand over the tank spamming cure on themselves... pretty obvious that it was intentionally done, right? Nobody is saying to just kick everyone you don't think is good, but when someone intentionally makes people die "for teh lulz" then yeah, they deserve a swift boot out of the dungeon. 9/10 a bad player will say "Sorry I'm really trying and just not getting it," or at least say something to convey that they aren't trolling. A troll will usually remain silent or say something along the lines of "Y u mad tho, bro?"

And to play devil's advocate, while I personally don't agree with it but I see the need to have a ruling on a grey area, almost any kick can be justified with "We had differing playstyles." GMs view that as an acceptable reason to vote dismiss.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

For those who suggest kick. That's a vote kick abuse. You cannot kick someone for not being skilled. That's terrible unfair and can be reported.

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Honest question to both of you: did you thoroughly read the OP's post? He described a tank that was purposely NOT using flash (after being asked to, and agreeing to use it) just to let people die so he could laugh and then spammed flash over their dead bodies. He did not describe a tank who didn't know what they were doing.

ETA- Just to add to my wall of text, the people who suggested kicking ALSO suggested to talk to the person in question before kicking them to determine if they are actually trying, and when referencing "bad players" they were obviously referring to trolls. Who are bad players.

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Originally Posted by pikster

Please OP. Do not follow the advice given to you in this thread , a tank not using flash, a DPS not playing their rotation well or a healer not healing well is not a bootable offence. Abuse of the Vote Kick feature is something these people can then report you for and you end up getting in more bother than them.

If they are actually harrising your, AFK or Offline, go ahead and kick but poor play is not one of the options, nor is "I think they might be trolling"...

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Originally Posted by Olil

The tank replies, "Sure." Then doesn't at all. But, when someone dies they run around the body spamming Flash and laughing.

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This is definitely not a lack of skill, nor confusion of role. This example is clearly someone whose sole purpose is to make someone else miserable and hence is fully deserving of the boot that his obnoxious arse should receive.

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Originally Posted by LadyVal

Honest question to both of you: did you thoroughly read the OP's post? He described a tank that was purposely NOT using flash just to let people die so he could laugh and then spammed flash over their dead bodies. He did not describe a tank who didn't know what they were doing.

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Yep! And even based on that, it doenst come under any factors in the Vote Kick Menu, this is not harrassment, this is trolling, sure, you could define this as harrassment of your time, but when we allow that we allow anyone who is new to a duty to be kicked from just about anything.

The literal definition of harassment is;

Aggressive pressure or intimidation:
I.e "they face daily harassment by the police"

Letting a party die and then using flash while laughing isn't aggressive, its not pressuring or intimidating. Its trolling yes but that player would have grounds to report any player kicking them for abuse.

Dont get me wrong here by the way, I am in no way condoning trolling, I absolutely despise them and I'm usually the first one to pipe up in a duty asking them to stop! BUT the current rule set does not allow for troll prevention, is that something that needs to change? Yes, absolutely. Does the current rule set give too much power to trolls? Yes!

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Originally Posted by pikster

-snip-

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Ah see that is the dictionary definition of harassment but in SE's ToS (which we all agree to to play the game so there's no getting around it) they state it as:

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Originally Posted by TOS

Disruptive behavior that negatively affects the experience of others or the service itself is strictly forbidden within FINAL FANTASY XIV.

Harassment
Our Definition of Harassment
The use of inappropriate and offensive language in general, or against another player is considered harassment in FINAL FANTASY XIV and is strictly prohibited. Using offensive language for character and retainer name, or spreading the inappropriate words in the character’s first and last names is also considered harassment. All claims of harassment are evaluated on a case by case basis and the action taken can be varied based upon the situation at that time. If harassment is found, the account penalty will be issued to all players who involve in the harassment.

•The use of language that is generally considered unacceptable in a public venue
•Any language that is purposely meant to harm or harass a third party
•Any language that promotes the discrimination of any race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation or gender

There may be inappropriate conduct that does not fit into any of the above categories that may be considered harassment and as such would constitute an actionable offense.

In accordance with our privacy and confidentiality policies, the GM will not inform the victim of any disciplinary action that was issued.

Inappropriate Behavior
Our Definition of Inappropriate Behavior
Disturbances that do not fall under the harassment category but are intended to prevent or hinder game play for others are considered inappropriate. Examples of inappropriate behavior are spam, gridlocking, and scam. FINAL FANTASY XIV respect individual player’s unique play style. However, GM may take action to players whose play style prevents other player’s game play.

3.2 Disruption. You may not in any way disrupt or interfere with the Game experience of other players, including the disruption of Square Enix's computers and servers.

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So by the ToS standards, trolling is violating the ToS by interrupting someone else's game activity and enjoyment, and thus, is punishable by a GM, which common sense tells you, makes a valid vote kick option. Because nobody is obligated to put up with blatant harassment like name calling or passive harassment such as trolling and they have every right to remove someone from their instance for actively ruining their game experience.

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Originally Posted by LadyVal

So by the ToS standards, trolling is violating the ToS by interrupting someone else's game activity and enjoyment, and thus, is punishable by a GM, which common sense tells you, makes a valid vote kick option. Because nobody is obligated to put up with blatant harassment like name calling or passive harassment such as trolling and they have every right to remove someone from their instance for actively ruining their game experience.

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And while it's not included under "Harassment" but rather "Inappropriate Behavior", there is no votekick option of "Inappropriate Behavior", so it tends to get lumped together with harassment issues. In my eyes, trolling is still a form of bullying (i.e. harassment), except it's the kind where the bully then goes "ohnoes, is that what I was doing? I only meant it as a joke, I had no idea you got upset, I'm so sorrrrryyy...." and then continues to do the same after a short break. ¬_¬

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Originally Posted by pikster

Letting a party die and then using flash while laughing isn't aggressive, its not pressuring or intimidating. Its trolling yes but that player would have grounds to report any player kicking them for abuse.

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Yeah, because laughing at and mocking people is certainly not considered harassment/bullying.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

For those who suggest kick. That's a vote kick abuse. You cannot kick someone for not being skilled. That's terrible unfair and can be reported.

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You can by SE's standards. Difference of opinion regarding tactics. End of the story.

IIRC they said you can boot for play style differences. It falls under player disputes and they won't do anything about those.

They only take action for super obvious griefing.

Flash has a larger AOE on my Femroe than it does my lalafell. I think it scales with bust size.


Eh I just tested it. I think I just flash too early when I'm on a smaller character and that's what cuts into my range.

If someone is purposefully trolling you like in your example then Vote Kick. Leave if that doesn't work. I, personally, have never experienced anyone in any role do this kind of trolling but I am sure it happens (although likely a lot less than the hyperbole in this thread would make it out to be).

However, I find most people in these forums (including many in this thread) suggest kicking for what amounts to be just basic bad play. Not everyone has the same level of skill or is as experienced. Kicking someone because they do not meet some arbitrary standard is ridiculous and should lead those who do to re-evaluate what they think is important in life. The ugliness of this (and any elitist MMORPG) community is absurd. New or learning or casual players get met with so much hate by the elitists who should realize that a healthy MMO community REQUIRES these people to continue to thrive. No new blood = a dying game.

Furthermore, all the people who complain about tanks/dps/healers not listening to advice, have you given thought to how you are actually giving that advice? How many times have we seen someone make a mistake and the "advice" is given out like "dude, you suck, use flash more" or "OMG, WTF is wrong with you? Stay out of the aoe" etc. "Advice" like that does not do much to foster better dungeon experiences.

Maybe what you are suggesting is actually difficult for them. FF14 has some serious ability bloat and players learning their mechanics at the same time as their role can be challenged to keep everything up at the right time. Frankly, I have no idea how people play this game using a gamepad and am continually impressed that so many players are as good as they are when they need to rotate around 20 abilities in a single fight.

If you want perfect runs go run with your FC. If the elites (or think they're elites) insist on PuGs then leave your vitriol out of it. And if you find you are getting trolled a lot in dungeons think about examining how you start off interactions with these people. A lot of times people respond negatively when met with criticism, especially if it is unnecessarily rude.