Quick Spell Speed Question

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

(Note however that if this were attainable, it would be the Fire IV DPS gain plus the extra other three spells, so much more than 80 DPS. My point here is it's something to look forward to some day, but today is not that day.)

---

You are correct. It is not yet the day for an extra Enochian segment. But it is the day for extra T3 procs.
But you are also missing that Spell Speed affects how soon Enochian is up, so more Enochians per fight. As did I, because I was basing it on 90s and then realized Enochian will always be 3 segments as it's cooldown is based on Spell Speed.
Faster Enochian's make more F4's too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Crit Hit Rate increases damage as it increases rate. You start at ~5% chance at ~45% increase in damage. Around 46 Crit gives you a 1% increase to both crit rate and crit damage.

[snip]maths[/snip]

---

Edit: No, sorry, you're right; I should have included the base damage.

normal chance + crit chance * (1 + crit damage multiplier) = expected value

0.95 + 0.05 * 1.45 = 1.0225
0.94 + 0.06 * 1.46 = 1.0276, an increase of 0.499%
0.93 + 0.07 * 1.47 = 1.0329, an increase of 0.516%
0.92 + 0.08 * 1.48 = 1.0384, an increase of 0.532%
.
.
.
0.75 + 0.25 * 1.65 = 1.1625
0.74 + 0.26 * 1.66 = 1.1716, an increase of 0.783%



And suddenly crit sounds even tastier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

So in a perfect world where this one extra cast is a Fire IV, that's a gain of ~80 DPS, yes; but to cast that extra Fire IV realistically, you need an extra Enochian segment, which is at minimum an extra four casts (Blizzard IV, Fire III, Fire IV, Blizzard III), which is currently unattainable. (Note however that if this were attainable, it would be the Fire IV DPS gain plus the extra other three spells, so much more than 80 DPS. My point here is it's something to look forward to some day, but today is not that day.)

---

I feel like you're missing something important in this argument. Three runs of enochian (at best) is 30+25+20 = 75 seconds. Enochian's recast is 60s. The 20s timer runs out during AF, so you will (at best) be going:
Eno wears off > B3 > T1 > F3 > Eno
Aka: 3 extra GCDs after it wears off - an additional +6 seconds. So we can assume the maximum recast for Enochian is ~80-81 seconds, and that's a slight undershot.

Spell speed would only necessitate a fourth cycle of AF under Enochian if you cut this 81 second timer (which is generally more like 70-73) down to something strictly less than 60. To shave off 10-13s from your casts in 60s, you would need nearly four to five times as much additional Spell Speed as you posited in your post to increase the gcds per 60s by 1.

Because of this massive leeway that BLM has in refreshing Enochian, Spell Speed has no soft cap with the current amounts we can get. For some actual numbers:
Assuming 0 random procs and a 2.26s GCD (since you gave me the F4 cast for that speed), your Enochian rotation would be:

F3>Eno>F1>F4>F4>F4>F3p>F4>B3>T1>B4
F3>F4>F4>F1>F4>F4>B3>T1>B4
F3>F4>F4>F1>F4>F4>B3>T1
F3>Eno

F4/B4 casts: 14*2.71s = 37.94s
GCD casts: 12*2.26s = 27.12s
Total: 39.06s + 27.96s = 65.06s

That's with not a single proc of any kind outside of the forced proc with Sharpcast for the 30s rotation and absolutely zero interruptions for movement or anything similar.
Thunder ticks for 18s. Assuming it's not flowing for the first, but is from then on, we're looking at ~11-12 ticks of Thunder which gives ~28%-31% chance of 0 procs.
You have two casts of F1. There's a 36% chance of getting 0 procs between the two of them.
Combined, there's a 10% chance that you will go through this entire rotation with literally 0 procs. Possible, but highly unlikely.

To decrease this baseline 65.06s rotation to a point where it is notably less than 60s (so 60.0 or less), you would need to increase Spell Speed to ~1460+
This drops the GCD to 2.08 (which is glorious) and causes the full rotation to be ~59.82s long with 0 procs. 10% chance that you'll wait less than 1s to pop Enochian.
Dropping below 59.0 requires 1570+ Spell Speed, and would give it ~58.64s duration with 0 procs. This would be scary, but 1 proc bumps it to 60.68, which is comfortable, and will happen 90% of the time.

So while this point exists, it's realistically unattainable in this current patch cycle.

If we attempt to maximize Spell Speed at the expense of all other stats, we still hit only a maximum of 1181 spell speed, which makes this rotation ~63s long with 0 procs.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/TQ67

So I dunno.

tl;dr: I think what needs to be looked at re: Spell Speed is the Enochian refresh timers, not some arguably nonsense discussion about a fourth Enochian rotation, which would never, in any realistic sense, be warranted. By the time you have the Spell Speed to do that fourth rotation, you'll also be able to hit F3>F4>F4>F1>F4>F4 in 15s, anyway, which means you'd have 4 shots of 15s AF3 rotations per 60s pretty easily.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

As did I, because I was basing it on 90s and then realized Enochian will always be 3 segments as it's cooldown is based on Spe;l Speed.

---

Alas, the cooldown is 60s independent of spell speed. Only Spear can shorten it for us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

Assuming the 5%/45%/+1/+1 numbers are correct, this is still decreasing when we consider the % change instead of the absolute increase.

0.05 * 0.45 = 0.0225
0.06 * 0.46 = 0.0276, a change of 0.0051, 22.67% of 0.0225
0.07 * 0.47 = 0.0329, a change of 0.0053, 19.20% of 0.0276
0.08 * 0.48 = 0.0384, a change of 0.0055, 16.72% of 0.0329
.
.
.
0.25 * 0.65 = 0.1625
0.26 * 0.66 = 0.1716, a change of 0.0091, 5.60% of 0.1625

---

1.1716 / 1.1625 is an increase of 0.78% damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

I think what needs to be looked at re: Spell Speed is the Enochian refresh timers, not some arguably nonsense discussion about a fourth Enochian rotation, which would never, in any realistic sense, be warranted. By the time you have the Spell Speed to do that fourth rotation, you'll also be able to hit F3>F4>F4>F1>F4>F4 in 15s, anyway, which means you'd have 4 shots of 15s AF3 rotations per 60s pretty easily.

---

Please recall my very first statement that the limiting factor is our low maxMP, not our spell speed. The point of the fourth segment post was that we can't afford to cast any extra Fire IV spells unless we add a fourth segment. We're already casting the most Fire IV spells per segment that our MP allows, so spell speed is really only useful to the point where you can comfortably fit a full three segments into the one minute recast on Enochian.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

Alas, the cooldown is 60s independent of spell speed. Only Spear can shorten it for us.

---

As I just explained in a long post above, this is absolutely not accurate for any value of Spell Speed that we can achieve in this patch cycle. Enochian is the only cooldown in the game that is directly affected by the amount of Spell Speed you have. I outline this here:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

Assuming 0 random procs and a 2.26s GCD (since you gave me the F4 cast for that speed), your Enochian rotation would be:

F3>Eno>F1>F4>F4>F4>F3p>F4>B3>T1>B4
F3>F4>F4>F1>F4>F4>B3>T1>B4
F3>F4>F4>F1>F4>F4>B3>T1
F3>Eno

F4/B4 casts: 14*2.71s = 37.94s
GCD casts: 12*2.26s = 27.12s
Total: 39.06s + 27.96s = 65.06s

---

I further explain that this is the minimum cooldown for Enochian, and you will only see this exact rotation 1 out of every 10 casts of Enochian that you do in single-target encounters, at BEST.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

We're already casting the most Fire IV spells per segment that our MP allows, so spell speed is really only useful to the point where you can comfortably fit a full three segments into the one minute recast on Enochian.

---

...which is all values of Spell Speed less than 1600 or so, so saying that you only want Spell Speed to a point is flat wrong when the breakpoint that we'd be worried about is literally never going to be encountered.

You're just looking at this in the complete wrong way. You're considering additional casts being completed in the same time window, when we're looking at how long it takes us to complete the string of casts that we need to and want to complete.

Fundamental misunderstanding of my counterpoint to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

MP might be infinite, but max MP is not.
There isn't enough MP to support the loads of spell speed that people want to stack.

On paper, yeah, loads and loads of spell speed are great, but spell speed doesn't get you any more Fire IVs in an Enochian segment where your MP only supports four casts anyway.

---

This is completely debunked by the extensive post I made, by pointing out that what you are arguing here is a grossly incorrect way of viewing the benefit of Spell Speed. You're looking at it as black and white -
"Can I get more casts of Fire IV during Enochian if I increase Spell Speed? No? Welp."
When it is really:
"Will my Enochian be off cooldown for less time if I have additional Spell Speed? Yes! Hot damn."

It's a few seconds here and there, but in discussing min-maxing and optimal stat spreads for BLM, it is fundamentally wrong to argue that these additional Fire cycles in an extended duration fight do less to aid dps than the comparatively marginal gains you would get from an equivalent expense into Critical Hit Rate.

(There's also the breakpoint I can't be arsed to find where you'd be able to do F3>F4x5>B3, rather than having an F1 in there)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

When it is really:
"Will my Enochian be off cooldown for less time if I have additional Spell Speed? Yes! Hot damn."

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

spell speed is really only useful to the point where you can comfortably fit a full three segments into the one minute recast on Enochian.

---

The point where you can comfortably fit a full three segments (including accessory and supplemental actions) into the one minute recast on Enochian is the point where Enochian is off cooldown the minimum amount of time (approaching 0 seconds), so why we're still arguing is beyond me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

(There's also the breakpoint I can't be arsed to find where you'd be able to do F3>F4x5>B3, rather than having an F1 in there)

---

I got 5 Fire IV into a single rotation only with fey wind, ley lines and an enhanced arrow with my SS being at 1046. A new problem arises though. Mp ticks, you're too fast with B4 and Thunder in UI, you only get 1 tick lol. Still was fun being a machine gun. But the amount of SS we'd need for that probably will never be attained. My GCD was at 1.51 or so with those buffs.

The more the better in spellspeed for a single target rotation.
Having too much is kinda confusing in aoe rotation.
I find myself going back to Fire to quickly for the mana regen to tick XD

But i adapt.