Yes or No, and Explain, Please.

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Originally Posted by Sida

TL/DR you're committing a fraud the moment you claim you're selling the plot, instead of stating you're selling the release of the plot to be bought from the game.

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This.

It's a lie/fraud, if you say 'Selling plot for x Mio. Gil, send tell.', because you literally do not sell it.

Like 'Selling Thordan weapon drop', if in reality you meant by this that you (not speaking for the other 6 ppl) will pass on the weapon.

'Will relinquish plot for x Gil.' or 'Selling Thordan Kill' instead would be okay.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

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This.

It's a lie/fraud, if you say 'Selling plot for x Mio. Gil, send tell.', because you literally do not sell it.

Like 'Selling Thordan weapon drop', if in reality you meant by this that you (not speaking for the other 6 ppl) will pass on the weapon.

'Will relinquish plot for x Gil.' or 'Selling Thordan Kill' instead would be okay.

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Ah, so you are just arguing semantics?
I suspect just about everyone involved knows exactly what is meant by 'Selling a plot/house'

It may just be semantics, but Sida is right. If you were selling off the time for when your house would be demolished, it would be a lot clearer and a lot harder for them to hold against you, not to mention safer for the buyer if you did it at a set, specific time instead of right after your PF vanishes.

As for the topic itself, it's their game, they can ban you or warn you for whatever they want. I'm nearly positive that the EULA and ToUA actually state that fact, too, it would be worded as something along the lines of "any offense deemed punishable at Square Enix's sole discretion".

The housing system has a plethora of flaws though, and this is just one more of them. I will likely -never- let my home go, because I don't want to lose any furnishings I can't remove. I have, however, considered selling my house for the MB cost of the furnishings and what I paid for it. I honestly can't say I feel that selling homes is something that is right or wrong though, it seems to be more of a grey area. The line would more likely be drawn at the price and circumstances.

I would personally support a system using the boards in front of houses for people to put them up for bid. The home and all furnishings, as-is, for a price starting at the market value of the plot. People could remove whatever furnishings they want(and were able to), before they listed their home, and the moment they put it up for auction, it could stay there for a week with all home customization locked and the door unlocked. Also, the ability to voluntarily relinquish your home would help a lot, as there is currently no reason to demolish your home unless you're paid for it, and waiting 45 days to get your money is a bit ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

All right. So I say I'm selling you a house. You give me 40 million Gil. I walk away. You're now out 40 million Gil. Is that wrong? Because there's nothing in the official rules saying I can't do that. Hiding behind "It didn't EXACTLY say I can't do something" is a poor argument. You won't agree, however, so there really isn't a point to carrying this conversation further.

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http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...=68216&id=5382

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Scam
In-game scams are defined as any inappropriate actions meant to defraud a fellow player with the intent to take in-game items or other possessions from them.

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Selling relinquishment of your plot isn't a scam, taking payment for something you don't do is a scam.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Ah, so you are just arguing semantics?
I suspect just about everyone involved knows exactly what is meant by 'Selling a plot/house'

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Yes, because if you sent a GM a chat log and demand punishment of someone who fraud you
they will care about semantics, too.

Or, the other way round:

I don't think you'll be banned for any of those transactions, in case someone sends in a copy of the chat log:

'If you pay me x Mio. Gil I will throw away all my gear / relinquish my plot / guide you trough a dungeon / be your personal servant / run in circles for 2 hours / camp at the housing area and inform you when a plot gets free.'
- 'Deal. Here's your money.'

Since afair GMs always look on (chat) logs to decide if someone is guilty of fraud/scam I'd say semantics are important.


But I have never seen a chat log or justification by GM for a ban because of plot 'selling', so maybe I'm wrong with my upper estimation.

Yeah, you aren't selling a Plot. You're taking a bribe to demolish your house. They have to purchase the plot from the game. You've just taken an in game item from a player for nothing. There is no exchanging of goods. Gouging another player for millions of Gil, then they still have to purchase the plot. So there you go. You aren't selling value. You're inflating an action to have perceived value. So you'd report a player for taking your Gil, because you were trying to buy something that explicitly can't be sold. Thanks for the citation. Therefor, there can't be a scam, just a player who gave someone a bunch of Gil to try and circumvent a poorly implemented housing system. Quit defending it.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

I suspect just about everyone involved knows exactly what is meant by 'Selling a plot/house'

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You are totally wrong, here on this forums some few time ago was posted couple of cases where people was asking help from GM's because that statement was not clear, as those players just looking the selling advertisement on party finder and didnt had much background information about it. So in the end they ended paying for plot being free and then being unable to buy the plot.
Though of course was some of their fault the lacking of information, still the Selling plot advertisement falls under a false advertisement case.

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Originally Posted by Judah_Brandt

Yeah, you aren't selling a Plot. You're taking a bribe to demolish your house. They have to purchase the plot from the game. You've just taken an in game item from a player for nothing. There is no exchanging of goods. Gouging another player for millions of Gil, then they still have to purchase the plot. So there you go. You aren't selling value. You're inflating an action to have perceived value. So you'd report a player for taking your Gil, because you were trying to buy something that explicitly can't be sold. Thanks for the citation. Therefor, there can't be a scam, just a player who gave someone a bunch of Gil to try and circumvent a poorly implemented housing system. Quit defending it.

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You are taking in game currency to do an in game action. If that's the transaction both parties understand, there is no scam.

The value of that action is what someone is willing to give for it, and what someone else is willing to accept for it. Value is perceived by those doing the transaction, not what you think it should be worth. The same holds true for everything, in game and in real life.

I would say its against ToS. As someone just 2 weeks ago made a post selling their house, i made a reply something along the lines "I think thats against ToS And you can get banned for it"

That topic disappeared.

No, you're trying to "sell" a house. Stop dancing around an action that is clearly toxic and taking advantage of a situation by making it seem innocent. It isn't, it's unfair, and it's literally the definition of ransom.