"Dark Knight: Tanking On The Edge"

As an aspiring drk, this is very informative and very useful, my only gripe is the way you called out the "big names of the community". I feel that this is distasteful, because even though I may agree with you, it could just be that the dark knight just isn't a job they are very familiar with. Other than that, keep up the good work!

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Activation is on the GCD and triggers the GCD/Deactivation is on the GCD but does NOT trigger the GCD. Grit's damage reduction is also additive, whereas all cooldowns are multiplicative.

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Where did you get that from? This seems very wrong to me.

good work but i don't agree at all with this "If there’s one poorly designed part of DRK as a tank, its Grit. There’s literally every incentive to have it off and none to have it on (outside the default benefits of a tank stance; mitigation, enmity, accuracy, etc)"

grit is an amazing mitigation stance like shield oath (because are the same) the skill himself is well designed, is like cleric stance, you sacrifice something to take another and in this case grit/shield oath offer so much to dealt less damage.

other think is this is the only skill in the entire set how go against the "more... DE PE ESE" mentality and actual meta and you try to avoid all time you want.

¿SE can be create another tank stance and no copy paste shield oath? yeah of course, ¿is the skill himself poorly designed? not at all, but all we have our own opinion.

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Originally Posted by Alphras

Where did you get that from? This seems very wrong to me.

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If you can find math to the contrary I will edit it out. However as I understand it Shield Oath and Grit are additive to balance with Defiance. If they are multiplicative with your cooldowns it would -seem- to mean that a 20% mitigation CD like Inner Beast or Rampart would be more eHP mitigation on WAR than it would on PLD or DRK. Math is not my strong suit though, I fully admit.

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Originally Posted by shao32

good work but i don't agree at all with this "If there’s one poorly designed part of DRK as a tank, its Grit. There’s literally every incentive to have it off and none to have it on (outside the default benefits of a tank stance; mitigation, enmity, accuracy, etc)"

grit is an amazing mitigation stance like shield oath (because are the same) the skill himself is well designed, is like cleric stance, you sacrifice something to take another and in this case grit/shield oath offer so much to dealt less damage.

other think is this is the only skill in the entire set how go against the "more... DE PE ESE" mentality and actual meta and you try to avoid all time you want.

¿SE can be create another tank stance and no copy paste shield oath? yeah of course, ¿is the skill himself poorly designed? not at all, but all we have our own opinion.

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Grit is still a worthy ability as a tank stance, make no mistake. Its just that there are SO MANY benefits to having it off, particularly when MTing, and nothing particularly special about having it on. DRK's main interchanging mechanics based on stance are specific to A. Having Grit off and B. Getting hit. Nothing for both. Most skilled DRKs will find every opportunity to turn it off regardless of what they are doing. Its a thing that high level play avoids as much as possible. Does that mean you never turn it on? Of course not. But it does mean you will try to exhaust other options before doing so.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

If you can find math to the contrary I will edit it out. However as I understand it Shield Oath and Grit are additive to balance with Defiance. If they are multiplicative with your cooldowns it would -seem- to mean that a 20% mitigation CD like Inner Beast or Rampart would be more eHP mitigation on WAR than it would on PLD or DRK. Math is not my strong suit though, I fully admit.

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It doesn't. A multiplicative 20% damage reduction is exactly the same as a 25% hp increase (in terms of eHP).

1/0.8 = 1*1.25


To put it into an example:

If you take a DRK and a WAR with a base hp of 15k.

The DRK activates Grit and Shadow Wall, which reduces incoming damage by 44% total.
The total damage he can take (his eHP) is 15,000 / 0,8 / 0,7 ≈ 26,756

The WAR activates Defiance (which increases his HP to 18.75k) and Vengeance (30% DR).
eHP = 18,750 / 0,7 ≈ 26,756

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Its just that there are SO MANY benefits to having it off, particularly when MTing, and nothing particularly special about having it on.

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While I agree somewhat with your assessment of Grit, there is Souleater that requires Grit for the healing effect. So there is at least some extra incentive to turn it on (beside the 20% DR and the enmity multiplier).

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Originally Posted by Alphras

To put it into an example:

If you take a DRK and a WAR with a base hp of 15k.

The DRK activates Grit and Shadow Wall, which reduces incoming damage by 44% total.
The total damage he can take (his eHP): 15,000 / 0,8 / 0,7 ≈ 26,756

The WAR activates Defiance (which increases his HP to 18.75k) and Vengeance (30% DR).
eHP = 18,750 / 0,7 ≈ 26,756

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Thank you for this, edited accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Grit is still a worthy ability as a tank stance, make no mistake. Its just that there are SO MANY benefits to having it off, particularly when MTing, and nothing particularly special about having it on. DRK's main interchanging mechanics based on stance are specific to A. Having Grit off and B. Getting hit. Nothing for both. Most skilled DRKs will find every opportunity to turn it off regardless of what they are doing. Its a thing that high level play avoids as much as possible. Does that mean you never turn it on? Of course not. But it does mean you will try to exhaust other options before doing so.

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¿many benefits to having it off? the only one is don't have the 20% of damage penalty, ¿what you lose if you don't have it on? soul eater don't give you self heals, extra hate, extra acc and 20% of damage reduction in other words you technically you lose more turn it off, but of course is a tank stance and depends of the situation is better have it or not, and many players and you i see you put more value on dps vs all, good tanks turn off when is need it and keep it on for the same reason all we can agree with that, is not a question of how skilled you are, is a question of how skilled is your healer to turn off grit, DRK are not WARs how can do all in the same time, more when we lose our self heal in "dps mode".
is just i don't like the people say the tank mode is poor designed like you say in this case only for in this game make dealt less dps, is a tank resource, one of the most importan all 3 tanks have it and deserve the same respect like the others skills that's all.

edit: i forgot you have access to blood weapon without grit mi fail, is a point to add but still i keep mi point, blood weapon is a dps buff to say something and give you mp vs lose 20%damage reduction and self heals, like i say is very situational and you are limited with you healer skill, are 2 tools and depends from 3º persons to what is better in that moment.

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Originally Posted by shao32

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Blood Weapon is very powerful though. It delays your TP consumption, gives you MP which for DRK contributes to... well, everything, and of course, DPS. Then there's tanking and getting hit, which gives you procs and Blood Price returns. All of this is a gain over tanking in Grit, and a gain over OTing. The self healing from Grit SE definitely adds up, but most healers do not account for it as it simply isn't that potent. Its similar to the way they don't account for parry.

No one is saying that a DRK should never use Grit, but when the time comes that you want to maximize your play and your party/raid's DPS, it is a safety net that you and your healers should learn to work without wherever possible.

That being said however, healers always have the final word. Listen to them. They should still understand however that this job functions best while using Grit as more of a cooldown than a stance.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

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yeah is powerful, the tp field, well the drk don't have many tp problem, only very long phases how the boss don't leave and slow dps in bosses in dungeons make this a problem, and the MP, all know this extra MP go for extra DA+SE. i don't say MT in grit is the best you can do vs grit off, of course not, im only saying grit give another type of benefits, and yeah the actual end game designe make choise grit off every time you can, but is not better vs grit on is only give you tools for X moments apart of pull and tank busters only.

about the healers, is actually mi own judgment, i don't know you but i have a WHM in raid is particularly a god between the WHM (he farm thordan ex solo heal, so is not a rookie at all)and the other one well we said he stay there , mi WHM prefer have us in tank mode when MT excep extremely well control pashes.

having a good team and you know the combat if the healers give me green light i turn off grit MT like i do in AS1, but if we don't know the fight or well you read about mi healers or whatever reason grit on is the best choice.

in the end you and me we are saying the same about playing DRK, but you say grit off is extremely nice and mode on don't give you nothing especial and i say grit on give us amazing buff that deserve the lose of blood weapon ^^

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Originally Posted by shao32

in the end you and me we are saying the same about playing DRK, but you say grit off is extremely nice and mode on don't give you nothing especial and i say grit on give us amazing buff that deserve the lose of blood weapon ^^

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I'm pretty sure that the whole take 20% reduced damage on no meaningful cooldown bit of Grit is pretty amazing and worth the temporary loss of Blood Weapon.