When will SE realize this endless vertical progression is going nowhere?

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

I disagree. XI always had at least one piece of gear that was great for years from each end-game zone. Not to mention all of the great situational pieces.

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"Situational pieces" won't really work with the combat we have now, sadly. When everything is boils down to a "rotation" or "group composition" that produces the highest numbers there isn't really room for things like "Fire+10%, Ice-10%" or whatever.

I think that to truly support horizontal progression the entire game's combat system would need an overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I think it works well vertical progression always give you something new to strive for. FFXI which released a ton of gear had so many events go unused because people would say well I already got something better which dropped from sky which released 5 years ago so I won't do new the new content. FFXI had so much of gear that was not better, or only really slightly better with a huge grind like salvage gear.

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To my recollection, the only content from pre-Abyssea (aka old FFXI) that was completely unattractive was Einherjar - nothing for MNK/SAM/NIN - unless you were doing Mythic.

There was always something you wanted from content X otherwise, even if it was gil--which could buy or craft something better. The likelihood of new content having nothing for your main job, nothing for your secondary job and nothing worth gil was so rare, I contest it ever happened.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

"Situational pieces" won't really work with the combat we have now, sadly. When everything is boils down to a "rotation" or "group composition" that produces the highest numbers there isn't really room for things like "Fire+10%, Ice-10%" or whatever.

I think that to truly support horizontal progression the entire game's combat system would need an overhaul.

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Yes, I know we cannot have situational pieces in this game. I was merely responding to Zumi's comment about XI.

I really do feel like the choice by SE to go extreme vertical, and short cycles, has shot themselves in the foot. They cannot maintain creation of new, different content at the rate they have chosen.

They won't because vertical progression games tend to be the most profitable and most successful MMOs. This game's population is larger than FFXI's (which I don't believe ever topped 1 million players even at its peak). Whether folks like it or not, WoW showed that there was a market for heavily vertical progression in MMOs, and until someone comes up with a model that is more successful than WoW's was, vertical progression is going to be the standard.

Personally horizontal progression is dumb to me. Why would I want to get a piece of gear that will last me for years? What's the of playing after that. I like getting new gear, and this game does a good job of making me feel more powerful with each piece of gear I get. That's great. So what that it only lasts 3-6 months. It's what keeps me playing. The only horizontal progression the could add that would work would be adding bonuses to gear. I.E. 5% chance tornado kick will give greased lighting 3, or 5% chance If resetting Jump's cooldown, etc. But this gear won't be better than the next set of gear.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

"Situational pieces" won't really work with the combat we have now, sadly. When everything is boils down to a "rotation" or "group composition" that produces the highest numbers there isn't really room for things like "Fire+10%, Ice-10%" or whatever.

I think that to truly support horizontal progression the entire game's combat system would need an overhaul.

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It can work if you think outside the box.

Horizontal Progression could work if they think of older content as content which can be used by FC or Party Finder aka Server only content where people can teamup and join together in challenging dungeons with imposed restrictions to them.


Like let's use Satasha for example, say for the Restrictions you could have Lv capped to 15, by capping your level to 15 a new item drops, an ring accessory that is specifically designed to make synced content against Levi easier, it could be a ring that prevent tank from being charmed or negates the reflective power of range/magic attacks allowing them to place DoT on both targets or something unique to add flavor to doing those trial again.

Then you have Levi Extreme, IL80=Normal Mode, IL70=Hard Mode, IL60=Extreme Mode(Maybe even impossible) but at least the option to impose that challenge would be there, and with specific accessories you could obtain by doing older content you could wear them to make the content easier.

As mentioned with the ring above it could have a "special effect when in Whorleater" that it granted the proper stats for your job at that IL. While yes these would end up eating a lot of inv, the idea behind these items is a means to give you an edge against certain content to ease the difficulty but also give the option to do it without those items to help.

The game does have challenge, but it is lost because of excessive IL from our gear, it's way to easy to pump it up and make it where it's a cake walk to complete any old content because you just have way to much power. The game design needs to take a step back to challenge players by forcing them to limit their IL even further HOWEVER also adding new rewards by imposing this challenge on yourself. It would honestly be a great way to add in new pieces of unique gear drops and revitalize older content without just making a new dungeon that will be forgotten once the new patch rolls around.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

WoW showed that there was a market for heavily vertical progression in MMOs, and until someone comes up with a model that is more successful than WoW's was, vertical progression is going to be the standard.

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Its true and the problem is that nobody has the balls to even try.
It could even be an immense success but we will never know...

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

To my recollection, the only content from pre-Abyssea (aka old FFXI) that was completely unattractive was Einherjar - nothing for MNK/SAM/NIN - unless you were doing Mythic.

There was always something you wanted from content X otherwise, even if it was gil--which could buy or craft something better. The likelihood of new content having nothing for your main job, nothing for your secondary job and nothing worth gil was so rare, I contest it ever happened.

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Here are a few examples but there were so many more.
CoP - most crafted gear at launch
ToAU - Original assault gear, Imperial Standing gear, all of orginal nyzul isle, except 1 body piece that had increased ws damage and 1 head piece, sky / other gear was already better, all of Orb BC seal fights in ToAU dropped trash gear
WotG - Campaign gear, Walk of echos gaer (this was sad nobody even did the event due to how worse the gear was compared to 5 year old stuff), for the most part the whole expansion was lackluster if you wanted new gear there were almost no upgrades in the entire expansion.
Most Sea Torques due to the fact Peacock Charm was already a better acc option, except the sam one


I very much disliked the gearing system in FFXI, how often would I hear in my LS well we not going to do X new event because the gear is worse then sky/camping hnms. It happened so very often especially when expansions came out that none of the gear in them was better then what you already had, mostly people I thought played the game for the story missions and that was about it.

I don't know what it was people like about the gearing system in FFXI, but it revolved around doing a lot of sky and dynamis and not much of anything else. SE was very unwilling to make any kind of gear that was better then sky gear for the longest time it was like Sky/king hnm gear was the pinnacle of all gear. It wasn't until salvage where we got gear that was maybe like 1-2% better then sky gear, which was gated behind 1% drop rates.

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Originally Posted by Garotte14

Personally horizontal progression is dumb to me. Why would I want to get a piece of gear that will last me for years? What's the of playing after that.

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It worked well in XI because there was always a piece of amazing gear that was difficult to get if you had bad luck. But the piece was so good that it was worth going 1/24 to get it. And after you got it, you were stoked and felt fullfilled. People played many jobs in XI. It was rare to find someone that only played one job.

Also, it could take a year, maybe more, to complete your best sets of gear for just one job. And it was a satisfying accomplishment.

When it effects their bottom line.

Nothing is more important than profit, paychecks and bonuses.

You take away the money, they try to get it back.

That is when changes are made.