Post here if you're a paladin who job changed, and why

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

I know Paladins aren't perfect, neither are Darks or War(even though I know some people will blast me for this point of view). The level of complaining seems to exceed what is reality, because if things were truly as bad for paladin's as all these threads would have us believe, SE would have already stepped in.Would I mind some of the suggested Paladin changes in the various threads; no I wouldn't because some of them would smooth out even rough edges I've seen. But they aren't truly needed. I'm all for the discussions on tweaks to various classes, too a point; I just feel its gotten whiney for the sake of being whiney and people should just let SE run the numbers for a bit and see if changes should be made.

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true true dps wise, they are good, the numbers are on what PLD was meant to be. The only thing most people are asking is development in the fun zone xD and some tweaks. Those whiney people just want changes, like a group trying to see change.

Just a note since you're new, the devs aren't omnipotent beings who are always right. 2.0 WARs were considered the worse tank by far due to lack of mitigation and pretty terrible self-healing. Guess what the devs openly told those who played WAR back then?

"Git gud"

Many patches after the first complaints started, WARs got a buff to improve their mitigation (biggest change to inner beast) which made them viable again.

If the dev team hasn't had a history of being unable to spot balance issues pre-release, nobody would be complaining about the state of different jobs whenever something is released.

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Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Just a note since you're new, the devs aren't omnipotent beings who are always right. 2.0 WARs were considered the worse tank by far due to lack of mitigation and pretty terrible self-healing. Guess what the devs openly told those who played WAR back then?

"Git gud"

Many patches after the first complaints started, WARs got a buff to improve their mitigation (biggest change to inner beast) which made them viable again.

If the dev team hasn't had a history of being unable to spot balance issues pre-release, nobody would be complaining about the state of different jobs whenever something is released.

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Trust me I know dev's aren't omnipotent beings, I've played many a MMO to prove that. I'm just saying they'll make changes when/if their numbers say changes need to be made. And who knows the changes they make might make things worse instead of better.I've just gotten to the point where I felt I needed to speak up and say, what about those of us who say ' we might have some issues, but we're not broken so keep playing and they'll(the devs) do something about it if their numbers truly say its a problem(ala your inner beast/war example)

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Originally Posted by nyttyn

I have reason to believe it's more than just a personal issue - both in the fact PLD is really abysmal right now, and with how many people who're in Alexander complaining about the job or how more and more groups are turning toward WAR/DRK.

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Ok. But you literally said "that showcases how many players are unhappy with the current state of Paladin in Heavensward and have chosen to abandon the job as a result". Now, say you get, I don't know, 34 people to agree with you. What does that mean exactly? What conclusion can you draw? Is that a lot? How many people visit the forums? How many will bother to post if they agree? If they disagree? Do you know? Maybe 512 people disagree and just can't be bothered to post. There's no way to know. There are hundreds of thousands of players, and their movements can only be understood by statistics, not if you happen to get five, twenty, or a hundred people to post to this thread.

Your "reason to believe" doesn't amount to much when they can pull the actual numbers. Your passive observations can't possibly make a good approximation. People are biased in what they see in favor of the result they are angling towards. You are biased. I am biased. The people who reply to this thread are biased.

I'm not saying that you don't have legitimate points to raise. I'm saying that you are not raising them in a constructive manner. If you have points to discuss, then raise those points. Get people talking about the issues at hand. Don't smokescreen them behind the assumption that you're leading a following of sorts.

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

So just because I'm not a 60 'din, I'm not valid?

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Going to respond directly to this because in this specific case it DOES matter.

Up to 60, Paladin is awesome. It's a fun class with a nice kit and good snappy responsive controls, it feels like a tank. It feels balanced compared to the other two tanks - less damage, more physical mitigation, a simpler class to play but lots of "oh crap" buttons. It's fun.

It's also fun when you ding 60, and when you start doing the basic content there. It's fun in Bismarck Ex, it's fun in Ravana Ex, it's fun in Alexander Normal.

Then you reach Alexander Savage and (at least until you overgear the encounter) the message is simple : Change to Warrior or DRK, or your raid group will have far less success. You are literally making at least 3 of the fights much, much harder for your raid group due to the absurd DPS requirements. Yes Paladins have now completed 2 of these 3 fights, but noone will say it's easier.

This is why paladins are whining. Currently I don't think a single Paladin is amongst the players who have cleared Alex 4 Savage. The world firsts of A1 and A3 savage were DRK/WAR. Paladins only started being able to complete these encounters once they were able to be overgeared via more and more 200/210 gear available.

Even then, even though Paladins can complete these encounters, Warrior and Dark Knight are BOTH a much better option for most raidgroups due to the fact that total raid DPS is the current stumbling block.

So no, although your opinions of a class ARE valid, you haven't reached or experienced the ONLY thing that Paladins are using as basis for their complaints - in the current meta on bleeding edge tough content, paladins are numerically worse than the other two classes, and a lot of paladins are feeling they have a really horrible choice : Job Change to Warrior, or hold back your group.

ASTs were changed in an emergency patch because they were numerically much much worse than other healers in ALL content. Paladins are fine in content where DPS doesnt matter so much, and where most attacks are physical : ie, most content before level 60. But for bleeding edge content, Paladins are a liability right now due to their poor threat making them do less DPS in an MT role than the other two tanks, and their unique utility spells being so niche that they don't really count towards the power of the class.

I'm sorry to say, but if you arent level 60 and arent in a group that's attempting Alexander Savage, your opinion ISNT as valid as Paladins that are, because most of those Paladins will agree with your opinions that the 1-59 experience is fun and fine.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

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Actually, you can see the difference while leveling up if you can play DRK and WAR pretty well while leveling up. On both of them I clear things on average 5-8 minutes faster than I do with pld in DF group, due to being able to push out damage.

I am a 60 pld working on the last phase of A3S, and I feel pld is fine how it is. I hate clemency and trying to use it efficiently with healers that are on the ball is hard, but I still think it's fine (even tho I hate it!) Them 10k+ crits tho... make me like it a lil ;)

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

The world firsts of A1 and A3 savage were DRK/WAR.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWlViWbK4GU

Only A3S and A4S were tightly tuned enough to warrant DRK/WAR for early progression, and only because you needed to min/max as hard as possible to beat both of their enrage timers.

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

So just because I'm not a 60 'din, I'm not valid?

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Because you have no firsthand experience with the problem at hands.

I shouldn't have to level another tank job to do current content when it's current. No one is looking for Paladin currently because its broken in Savage.

Took a lot of bitching to get AST fixed so I'm expecting to need a lot for PLD.

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Originally Posted by Tadus

ahh but here is the thing, you love it cause you still have stuff to see on PLD, and you haven't seen the full potential of PLD yet. Me and nyttyn already know everything from PLD, me and her and levels 60. We know what changes need and what improvements he needs. Of course you don't feel like he needs changes lol... YET

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Ok, then, as a lv60 PLD I love PLD as it is. Straightforward design with mostly useful cooldowns and now neat utility. The gameplay is fun and the job is still well-designed.

The meta is currently a mess because raids are overly relying on/emphasizing tank DPS and debuffs provided to define tanks rather than the fact the tank is supposed to take hits. Given that they added stuff specifically for off-tanking (Deliverance on WAR, not to mention the recent buff to Blood Weapon for DRK), this is one of the few instances where SE can legitimately say "you're doing it wrong" without sounding idiotic.