Something need to be done about BAD DPS.

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Originally Posted by WingsOfAzrael

let people learn how to play their class, isn't that what trying new classes is about? the fact is not everybody is gonna be able to play a class to its full potential

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(example) We had a DF-Bard doing 150dps in Alex3 in 180+ gear.
By that time anyone, even kids, should know what is the basic stuff. Heck, the tooltips are (at least in most cases) pretty self-explainatory for even the basic level of English.
(example) FC mates have met countless DoT-less Summoners spamming ruin2 ONLY.
I guess SE could add the total potency of a dot in the tooltips to those who cant math but if anyone thinks a job has 1 skill only at max lvl....
(example) Icemages... You get a help-popup at like lvl1 or 2 to explain the umbral/astral forms. Reading cannot be that tough, can it.


I guess some sort of max-lvl tutorial system would be nice, even if added to Gold Saucer Battle Square. And a "you must pass this test to try harder stuff"-kind of small gating. I know there's tons of gating already but at least then you know someone is just lazy spamming Blizzard/Heavy Shot rather than them not knowing any better.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

OP made quite a valuable suggestion and you come with what? Throwing around scripts and body ripping..
There is absolutely no way to improve some players except taking them by hand and showing them what to do, asking developers to do that is somehow ok, especially when they introduce mild dps checks that some people cannot pass.

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Yes, I come with that, because I'm fed up with all these threads whining about bad DPS.

On one hand, there's more than enough teaching in the game - all people need to do is actually read and practice. Quest and item descriptions, conversations, tooltips: everything is there. Low level dungeons, and especially guildhests: everything is there. And yes, there is a lot to learn in guildhests, actually, with much less time to invest and much less risk than in dungeons - of course that would require not charging blindly and listening to what the NPC is saying...something 4 out of every 5 new people don't do, because oh well just charge in and beat things up. People choosing to overlook those as "trivial" or "unimportant" or "who cares" - that can't be helped. People not wanting to actually learn - that can't helped. People choosing to burn through FATEs to level up and not bother with anything else until they get to "endgame" - that can't be helped.

On the other hand, I've had just about enough of different DPS classes cursing each other out. Different DPS that might not even actually know/play another job, just simply dissing whoever's playing it for not doing enough damage. Like, go play that job if you know it so well, and do better damage if it hurts you so much. I've also had just about enough of tanks thinking they're DPS and failing not only even noticing changes (more enemies showing up, de/buffs applied, etc) but also to hold aggro to the point where enemies are ripped off them left, right, and center, without even making much of an effort - and then of course it's the DPS being blamed again for "not being able to dodge", even though that isn't even the problem. I've also had just about enough of healers DPSing more than they heal, so much so that health bars drop so fast you blink once and everyone's dead.

I'm fed up with all this crying for parsers, as if DPS is the key to everything - because everyone's too lazy to do mechanics, so it's easier to think that everything can just be burnt away without giving a damn about any of details. Newsflash: that's not the case. Because that guy that's not doing as much damage as you, or even as much as another DPS, might actually be doing mechanics and helping the party to avoid a wipe, y'know. (Typical example: off-tanks and melee DPS in A4 with tunnel vision, only focused on hitting the legs/boss, and not even noticing balls or dolls or lasers.) That guy that's not doing as much damage as you, or even as much as another DPS, might actually having issues with their connection, the jerkiness resulting in stop-motion, bad input lag, higher latency, what have you - it is all too common, sadly, and has especially been common since HW. That guy that's not doing as much damage as you, or even as much as another DPS, might actually be dodging more AoE, giving healers less of a headache about whom to heal, not to mention resurrect.

And yes, things like Bismarck Extreme with its arbitrary and apparently very high DPS check are bad. The fact that they can't even be attempted solo in the DF makes them even worse - especially considering the other fact that PFs are never about practice/learning, only about clear or farm. And even the clear parties turn out to be abysmal, of course, because everyone only expects a clear, not wipe after wipe, so about three tries, all of them vote abandon and then disband. And farm parties with the "no law bonus" condition I'm sure discourage even more people to even try. I've been in one PF party that actually was advertised as practice, and did practice too - we went on for about 50 minutes, never getting the clear, but doing a lot of practice and getting closer and closer. You can read all the guides and watch all the videos, but it's not the same as actually being in there and trying to do the thing - not to mention the fact that someone might be doing perfectly, but that doesn't amount to much when the 7 others barely know what to do yet. Because, y'know, nobody's doing practice, only clears and farms. Because it's easier to cry about bad DPS than actually creating the opportunity for people to learn.

I know there are bad DPS out there, but DPS is not the alpha and omega of everything. It's usually one actual bad one in any party, if any at all, and it's not even noticeable because the content can still be done if the others are actually good (with exceptions ofc, but still). And whoever's bad, trust me, they know. (If they just don't care, that's different thing, and as pointed out, can't be helped, no matter what.) In any case, lower your expectations when in a random party. In a static, or even a tight-knit FC: sure, you know each other, you do pretty much everything together, you can work together, you're familiar with what everyone can do. Random parties are different. You'll never be grouped with 7 other people who know and can do everything as perfectly as you.

So just - stop this whining about DPS already. It's bloody annoying. Bloody annoying to see thread after thread after thread popping up about this. Trust me, I could create threads about dumb tanks and awful healers as well, and I'm quite sure I'm not the only one. Yet you don't see those festering on p1 on a pretty much daily basis.

I usually just blacklist people that everyone is mentioning in this thread.

Is there potential to be good in the future? Sure. I'm just not willing to be apart of that trial and error process as they work their way up there.

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Originally Posted by zandervont

(example) We had a DF-Bard doing 150dps in Alex3 in 180+ gear.

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That's less to do with rotation and more to do with someone who doesn't give a damn. Anyone who uses any skill when the GCD is up will hit more than 150 dps in Alex 3. So, that's basically the worst possible example, and not to be used as a rule of thumb.

Let's be outright honest here, most people do moderate DPS. The few that don't simply don't care about their job enough to make the effort, and never will no matter what tutorials you throw in their faces. What you guys are really talking about is optimal DPS, and that's something which no one should have forced on them. It turns players into drones that have to use a very specific set of skills in a very specific order. It's a rigid method that, while effective, just kills the enjoyment of playing the game.

If you want everyone to do the same damned thing, why even have players in the first place? Might as well replace them all with macro-bots.

People who don't care enough to actually try hard to learn playing their job correctly will never improve no matter what learning tools you give them.

A think a reasonable solution would be to implement some kind of system like Proving Grounds in World of Warcraft, albeit more strict. Something along the lines of "You cannot participate in X content as Y class until you can complete this challenge as Y class." The challenge would obviously have to be designed specially for every class. Not only would this help weed out bad DPS, but bad tanks and healers too if executed correctly.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

What you guys are really talking about is optimal DPS, and that's something which no one should have forced on them. It turns players into drones that have to use a very specific set of skills in a very specific order.

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You know what's insulting and I wish would stop? People like this calling me a drone for wanting to perform as well as I can for my group of friends. Not striving to be "optimal" hurts others. As egocentric as I want to be, to play my way and just let whatever will be, be, I have friends who rely on me not doing that. When I'm out in the world by myself I can go half cocked and play whack a mole with my keys and not care. But when I'm in a group, their having fun is dependent on my performance, and my fun depends on theirs. I whole-heartedly argue that members of a community ought to try to work to their fullest if they have any expectations out of others they encounter. I'm not a drone. I am not a slave to numbers. I willingly strive to play as well as I can so that others are not a slave to me.

Yeah. I am human and I mess up. I am honestly not the best at the 60 rotation for DRG yet. But I'm not going to take a cop out and say I won't even try. I've raided competitively in other MMOs and I will put the effort in here to have this crap committed to muscle memory so I can devote my conscious decision making to applying myself to the boss mechanics so the 3-23 other people I am playing with in no way have to struggle on my account.

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Originally Posted by Sereven

You know what's insulting and I wish would stop? People like this calling me a drone for wanting to perform as well as I can for my group of friends. Not striving to be "optimal" hurts others. As egocentric as I want to be, to play my way and just let whatever will be, be, I have friends who rely on me not doing that.

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Because being slightly under 'best' is so debilitating for your group. Quit being so melodramatic. You want to play that way? Fine, it's your playstyle, and if you like the paint-by-numbers method, more power to you. What I disagree with is the expectation that everyone else should do the same. That's just unrealistic and, frankly, idiotic.

Heaven forbid we be allowed to have any kind of a personality or unique playstyle. If it's not optimal, then clearly we're not playing the game properly.

do a dummy test

No amount of tutorials, ranting, wipes, insults, or parsers are going to change those people's attitudes who just don't care in this game. Not everyone cares about gitting gud or of playing their role to the fullest as long as they get their lootz, glam, clears or whatever because it's "muh money, muh sub."