AST Sect Theory

I have both AST and WHM 60. IMO if your paired AST WHM go Diurnal, AST SCH go Diurnal, AST AST 1 go each. Nocturnal is just to weak and mana inefficient and doesn't work well with Time Dialation or Celestial Opposition.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Noct needs help before any truly useful discussion comparing the Sects can take place. You know it's in a bad place when most of us end up touting the stacking regen effects of Diurnal AST+WHM as the more efficient alternative to Noct AST+WHM despite the longstanding meta of regen+regen easily becoming an overhealing mess compared to regen+shields.

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I don't believe this to be entirely accurate, as the "help" may never arrive. Rather than ignoring Nocturnal Sect all together, and "touting" stacking regens, shouldn't we be working to figure out how to get the most out of the sect?

I think the reason we tout the stacking regen is due to the fact that its supposed to work like that. An AST paired with a WHM isn't supposed to go Nocturnal, because they're not capitalizing on the things that work well together -- regens. All of the regens. And with the AST, you don't have to worry about overhealing with their lower potency. This doesn't prohibit a player from choosing Nocturnal Sect, but they're not going to be working optimally with their co-healer.

Sorry but SCH + Noct is never going to be good. SCH don't have an issue keeping galvanized up so there isn't a need to have AST using Aspected Noct other than a 5% healing boost. Then you look at the fact that galvanized is always going to be stronger than Noct just compounds the problem. Thirdly AST doesn't have the big AoE heals so you need to press every advantage you can meaning Diurnal's strong regen.

Honestly though, why not queue up Trials/Coil/CT and try for yourself. If it doesn't work good @ lv. 50 it won't work good lv. 60.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Sorry but SCH + Noct is never going to be good. SCH don't have an issue keeping galvanized up so there isn't a need to have AST using Aspected Noct other than a 5% healing boost. Then you look at the fact that galvanized is always going to be stronger than Noct just compounds the problem. Thirdly AST doesn't have the big AoE heals so you need to press every advantage you can meaning Diurnal's strong regen.

Honestly though, why not queue up Trials/Coil/CT and try for yourself. If it doesn't work good @ lv. 50 it won't work good lv. 60.

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And in the moments where the SCH is dealing with something else, wouldn't it be better if the AST could drop a shield instead of a regen which won't stop/mitigate damage, and then follow up with better healing than its Diurnal counterpart? If the SCH keeps galvanize up, then that leaves the AST free to do other things like use synastry so the SCH doesn't cough up a lustrate. The fact that galvanize is better than an AST shield doesn't compound a problem. The way I see it, if you've got a SCH who isn't particularly aware of mechanics and gets downed, the AST is capable of stepping in temporarily until the SCH is back on their feet. The SCH doesn't have a big AoE heal either until 52, unless you're counting Whispering Dawn, because Succor is the same as Aspected Helios.

I've done CT and had more success than not due to player awareness. Trials, again, I haven't had much problem with, but some people are of the opinion that doesn't mean jack. That leaves Coil, which I haven't done mostly because I don't have an FC or Static and people are focusing on AlexS atm. I was hoping others would run with it in either AlexHM or AlexS so that there'd be a wider amount of feedback rather than just one man's statement, and everyone else shouting down that it was just a lucky break or a good static.

I like the effort to make Noct work, but as SCH there is almost never a moment when I don't have a Galvanize effect from Adlo or Succor out unless I'm just not needing to heal. I don't need a backseat healer providing weaker barriers when they could be contributing the frequent regen effects that I can't provide.

AST should just be given the same potency as the other two healers, it's absolutely ridiculous that there are three healers and one of them has weaker heals than the other two, weaker CDs and utility for HEALERS (not support) and it's justified by their cards.

Putting double regens on people makes sense, but putting double shields on people that stack would be broken, especially with the new aoe healing capabilties SCH was given.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I like the effort to make Noct work, but as SCH there is almost never a moment when I don't have a Galvanize effect from Adlo or Succor out unless I'm just not needing to heal. I don't need a backseat healer providing weaker barriers when they could be contributing the frequent regen effects that I can't provide.

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Except now comes the argument that AST regen is too weak and they need to be buffed so they're comparable to the WHMs. Which then follows the argument of, no, just play WHM then.

Let's look at it like this. Mechanics pop up that you undoubtedly drop Succor for shields, and then moments later they go down and healing needs to be done. A Nocturnal AST should be assisting by using Helios. Now your party has just received 190pot + 190pot shield, and additional healing of 290pot + 5%. If for some reason your shields went down (I'm thinking something along the lines of stomps from Titan) and the AST went with AH, that's still a (140pot + 5%) and that again as a shield. Is it optimal? No. But it doesn't hurt anything either. You come in a moment later and give better shield if you want to.

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Originally Posted by EchuKayu

AST should just be given the same potency as the other two healers, it's absolutely ridiculous that there are three healers and one of them has weaker heals than the other two, weaker CDs and utility for HEALERS (not support) and it's justified by their cards.

Putting double regens on people makes sense, but putting double shields on people that stack would be broken, especially with the new aoe healing capabilties SCH was given.

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No, they shouldn't be given the same potency. It's not so ridiculous if the problem is with the players and their overall understanding of the job than it is with the job.

For example, running with your stacking regens example, it does make a lot of sense to stack regens. We do it as WHM, so why not AST Di + AST Di or AST Di + WHM? There's no real good reason for us not to stack regens. Heck, the only problem we really run into with stacking regen as WHM is overhealing, right? So then what's one way to ensure that doesn't happen, but still allow for regens to stack? What about a lower potency regen? One that's weaker but still effective? BAM. AST in Diurnal Sect.

Continuing with your example, but moving on to shields, stacking shields would indeed be pretty OP. I mean, that's why they nerfed WHM stoneskin, right? Stack 18% HP on top of all the other shields you get a pretty powerful stack going. So, like SCH, our shields don't stack with other shields other than Stoneskin. We can't have shields that are exactly like SCH, because then we might as well just be SCH. So the fix? More potent heals while in Nocturnal. We don't worry about shields unless something really bad happens (a la SCH goes down b/c stupidity or mechanic shenanigans). We're not equal to the SCH, but we can still hold our own for a bit until they're back on top, and help them via Synastry and Essential Dignity.

Apologies that I can't address comments in greater detail at the moment, but I wanted to point out that AST regen effects are fine. I believe that their overall healing potency is a non-issue and that better healing CDs would bring them up to par. Lightspeed was an improvement, but more is needed.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Apologies that I can't address comments in greater detail at the moment, but I wanted to point out that AST regen effects are fine. I believe that their overall healing potency is a non-issue and that better healing CDs would bring them up to par. Lightspeed was an improvement, but more is needed.

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No worries. I agree that they're fine, just that the typical argument that you'll see is that the regen isn't as good as the WHM, thus many people will argue that why bother with the AST in Diurnal with a SCH, when you can just take a WHM.

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Originally Posted by Apeiron

If you go WHM + WHM you don't have the damage reduction, and if you go SCH + SCH you don't have the AoE heals of a WHM. Not a very convincing stance you've taken.

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If you are not convinced it's not my fault. I'm saying that if you want to raid difficult content you will have to run SCH and WHM, because you NEED the AoE heals and the damage reduction.