I keep getting mixed advice for DRK Tanking

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Originally Posted by GeekMatt

Tank priority is
Manage Aggro > Survivability > DPS and Support.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Start with all VIT and all your points in VIT once you hit 50. This is the safest route to go while you're learning.

When you've got an idea about how much HP you actually *need* for any bit of content, you can start swapping in some STR accessories/attributes.

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This is actually how to make it smart. You shouldn't brainlessly listen ppl saying "real raid tank go full str u noob", or "got all vit and get sturdy".

Start with all vit, try and gradually swap one piece of accessory at time if you feel you don't need so many HP.

You can consider turning progression points from vit to str using Keeper's Hymn instead of swapping an accessory as it about same amout than one (about 30 str/vit).

I'm not a DRK (it's only 51) but I know tanking. My suggestion would be 30 STR for attributes (and keep dumping in the remaining 10), and for accessories go with Vitality for now. As you get more comfortable swap them over. I'm currently running Warrior, but I used the same setup on PLD as well back in 2.0-2.55, and you don't lose that much in terms of survivability vs. what you gain in aggro management. Also, coming fairly soon (3.05/3.1) we'll also be getting higher iLV crafted accessories, if you REALLY want to play DRK I'd suggest getting them and overmelding VIT/STR if you can afford it. It truly is the best of both worlds.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Start with all VIT and all your points in VIT once you hit 50. This is the safest route to go while you're learning.

When you've got an idea about how much HP you actually *need* for any bit of content, you can start swapping in some STR accessories/attributes.

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This is about the same advice for new paladin and warrior as well. However for 3.0 (by the way stats are worded now) Dex was removed from the block/parry rate and Str from the amount blocked/parried. Those are no longer part of the tank selection. My mix of right side pieces Str/Vit was mostly anything that had +accuracy. In fact I'm still trying to pick accessories with either +Accuracy > +Determination. However I don't know how much changed with determination in 3.0 or if its still relevant to stack it. The only thing I can think of that may be a third stat for dark would be piety melds on accessories. But I've yet to read anything that suggests a buffed Mp pool would be of any use at this time.

I remember being told by folks in DF (2.50), who want to speed run or do large pulls to drop +str for +vit so healer can dps more. Or (when everyone else was over geared) to have more +str to make up the difference so you can better maintain hate. Especially if youre weapon is/was lower than the rest of the party.

I am aware there were folks that had a recommended max Hp for Paladin and Warrior based on what turn you were on. Then you could swap vit for str once you reached that point in gear. Otherwise the Hp would be overkill and the -str would lessen the overall party dps. I've yet to find any thing that gives a +vit = Hp break down for new 3.0 content yet by the tanks job. Let alone the changes to parry stat and how it actually affects the parry rate now. Hopefully someone reading this thread might have an idea, however this would lead more into secondary matera melding on top the stat allocation/builds.

Do you need more health? -> VIT

Do you feel some of your health is wasted? -> STR

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Originally Posted by Dracosavarian

What I did, and will continue to do, is pump all stat points into Strength. My logic is that it helps my damage and consequently, my ability to hold hate better. More Strength = More Hate, essentially.

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Meh argument. There's not a tank in the game that can't hold hate if played correctly even against the most zealous of DPS, I don't care if you're wearing BRD accessories with your stat points in Mind. Also DA Power Slash completely trivializes hate. Do it once, twice, and you can hold hate for the next 2-3 minutes before you need to touch anything that generates additional aggro, even with no investment in STR.

For the OP, do your best to disregard comparisons people are making to PLD/WAR. DRK plays very differently. If you're cross classing GLA/MRD CDs, you have a large total pool of defensive abilties, some with very short recast times. The name of the game with DRK is stacking multiple CDs and knowing when its fluff and when its a tankbuster, and wether its physical or magical, as well as taking advantage of the synergy and large relative uptime of DRK CDs. As far as DPS goes MP directly correlates to damage. MP=DPS. Study your ability tooltips, familiarize yourself with the MP costs/returns of your abilties, and make active use of abilties that the other tanks have no equivalent of, such as Salted Earth, Dark Mind, Plunge, and Abyssal Drain (targeted, ranged, AoE hate-a brilliant tool.)

Remember: Hate>Positioning>Mitigation>Damage. Get aggro, get things into position for the rest of your party to do their jobs optimally, make sure you can handle the damage that comes with the aggro, then deal damage to maintain the aggro. Every tank in the game has the resources to get a solid lead in aggro against one or many targets ahead of equally geared DPS/Healers regardless of investment in damage. Regardless of opinions in the tanking meta and flashy things you can see tanks doing in farmed and/or dated content that they are grossly overgeared for, a tank is a tank and the above is the sequence of priorities, 100% of the time, always, no exceptions. As you get better, hate, positioning, and mitigation will become second nature and then you can focus more on DPS, but still only after those first 3 steps. That's a skillset that you should earn though and not just dive into from day one. Experienced and/or bored tanks love to brag about their deeps and ability to use minimal mitigation and get carried by awesome healers, essentially cheesing content they know like the back of their hand with players they trust for shits and giggles or a challenge. Don't get star-struck by that, and don't be reckless on content that you aren't familiar with. Learn to tank then learn to dps. Keep that mentality and those priorities and your groups will clear content, and if they don't... well, it wasn't your fault. ;)

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Meh argument. There's not a tank in the game that can't hold hate if played correctly even against the most zealous of DPS, I don't care if you're wearing BRD accessories with your stat points in Mind. Also DA Power Slash completely trivializes hate. Do it once, twice, and you can hold hate for the next 2-3 minutes before you need to touch anything that generates additional aggro, even with no investment in STR.

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I do not feel that this is a Meh argument. Especially having come from playing Paladin first with full Vit pumped into my stats and full Vit gear, vs Drk now at 54 with full vit Gear and stats pumped into strength. Two tank classes and one at end game for quite a very long time before 3.0

There is a difference between the classes, yes. But even then I am noticing that I am holding hate much easier on my Drk vs my initial Vit stat tests. Especially against multiple mobs. What you suggest with Dark Arts + Power Slash is likely vs a single mob. And in that case, it is for the most part true. Against multiple mobs however, such an action would reduce your MP to almost nothing very quickly. Of course, I am not saying that you would advise doing such. Likely you yourself do not.

However, to say it is a Meh argument, is quite fallacious. It does make a difference. As a test I recently diverted all of my bonus stats on PLD to Str from it's former Vit. Yes, I lost about 400 HP. But the damage I am doing as a Paladin now, even in shield oath, has given me a noticeable difference. Hate is proving much easier for me to manage vs going full Vit on stats, and Dungeons are quite easier for me on Paladin now as well as that of my group, as everything is getting burned down that much faster. DPS and nukes are able to go full on out with little worry of pulling hate from me. My healers almost always have MP to spare and we can go non stop from pull to pull due to how quickly things die. I have had pretty much zero issues, save for an instance of two extremely overzealous Ninjas in a Dungeon that decided they were the tanks and in their effort to do a lightning quick speed run, pulled everything on them and ate a death or two. While I watched and just shook my head before running in to pull the mobs off of them.

Strength does make a difference, and to say it doesn't I feel is being disingenuous. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. Perhaps your experience is different. But then again, so is mine. Each chooses their own path. Whether or not they make it work without issue is what matters in the end.

Everything else you have said I agree on for the most part.

If you don't have a healer friend healing you, you should probably go mostly VIT and put some STR in there. If you do have a good healer friend, that knows how to heal really well, then you can go full STR. Reason you want VIT in PuG's is the fact that there are so many really bad healer's out there and having that extra health on your bar gives them some room for error. If you have both sets of VIT and STR accesories or have them melded for your level, if you find that your healer is doing nothing but spamming cures on you (no dps), then you can shave off more of your health and go for a more offensive stance to make up for their slack of DPS.

As for those making the argument that STR is to hold hate better, don't do it for that 100%. All tanks are designed to keep hate all the time in up to date gear while still sitting in full VIT. If you're going full STR, learn your rotations and be ready to spam them to up your DPS, as thats what STR is really for as well as maintaining hate better.

I'm going to end your problem with this statement.

DRK is a tank. So prioritize what you need to do. 1> Hold aggro. 2> Stay alive. 3> DPS. In THAT order. So here's how you do that. Your aggro holding isn't often based on your gear so long as your rotation is done right. If your gear is severely outdated, it may be a problem but not likely. Next is staying alive. This is only second priority because you should have a healer helping you. A healer can keep you alive but if you don't hold aggro, that won't matter. So what you need to consider is how squishy are you? Do you have enough HP? Defense? If you are constantly being told by healers you are hard to heal, make sure your defense oGCD rotation is good then look into vit gear. If they are constantly bored (in high level content) and not having to worry about you and you are having a small issue with DPS checks, maybe switch some pieces to balance the tables.


Remember, above all else, you are a tank. It's your job to survive and draw attention. People WILL complain. That will always be a thing. Just do you and let the others deal with their anger. Won't hurt your q time.

Brochachos

Instead of telling him VIT > STR or VIT < STR why don't you all teach him how to rotate his cooldowns. Learn the ins and outs of your cooldown rotations and how well you can tank and go from there.

I would advise against STR. The added dmg is negligible and so is the aggro you'll get. If you stay with VIT, you give your healer breathing room. They can stay in DPS mode much longer and actually do more DPS than a STR tank. A DPS-mode healer blows away the STR tank dmg.

I have never, ever run into aggro problems on a VIT tank, unless the DPS blows everything at the start of the fight before I get mobs gathered and placed, but even STR won't help there.