The more things stay the same...

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

I totally get what you mean but honestly, if you are alone and go to DF you don't really expect to train there, you usually go there cuz you expect the kill (now I mean, back in 2.0/2.1 trying a trial on DF was for everything but the kill xD newcomers have it easy with their relic now xD)

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The DF should let people go in alone even if they don't know anything about the content. People have to get started somehow on content with how the community is shaping up, and as things are standing it is easier for a player to get their feet into the water with a quick DF than it is to fish around for a learning group or forming one themselves. That's without even going into the impact that the coil weekly lockout has on when certain kinds of groups show up in the PF. Good luck getting a decent Learning group for coil T6 on weekends. :(

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Originally Posted by Colt47

snip.

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It's about a disparity between design and practical application. How it's DESIGNED is also how it's used, but since it's designed that way, it can also be used in a different way. It's a little confusing to explain, but the way it is now allows for groups to fill holes AND for people to get practice. It may have originally been intended for the former, but the latter may have been an unexpected but welcome consequence. However, shifting more towards one or the other will not benefit anyone. But yes you can also say they specifically designed it to please both camps as well. That's actually why roulettes were put in.
Bottom line is it's not changing, either because of the happy accident or intentional design.
Let me also add that hearing antipathy to forming a static raid group is increasingly silly to me given my own background...back then that was the ONLY way to get things done. Matchmaking systems didn't even exist for MMOs for a good while.

why you guys feeding the troll anyways, this is the same thread 10 million people have made b4, cry cry its to hard, let me have my stuff for free.
I don't like something stamp my feet have a tantrum.

Why do people bother with these threads, just leave the game. It really simple.
The designers aren't going to be like, AMG this one guy complained, lets change the whole game for him!

Perhaps its a good thing you don't like this game, you can spend some time out of game maturing.

as to your points.
1) you just don't like the rewards, not that there isn't any. And no ones stopping you from playing HM.
2) Chocobos aren't meant to replace people.
3) you have to do something you don't want to to get what you want, welcome to life.
4)You want thing even easier than they are now, so you don't have to be in a group with other people, why are you playing an MMO. A lot of people want the game more difficult not less. This is purely your biased opinion.

If you want an expemple of why DF is not made for training, neither by the developers design nor the players use;

The other day I was pissed off that FL queue takes so long so I got my scholar guildie in my party and we tagged for moogle ex, without any experience, I just wanted to change my mind and told the people in the df about it and why I did it and apologized for it, do you know what the answer was?

"It's not really nice for those who trained for it beforehand" (exact words, I know it's weird I expected to be insulted too xD)
(We actually almost won, and would have if one of our dps did not had to leave for personal reasons and be replaced by some thick head moron who did not listened to a single word)

So yeah, people do think DF is not for training, your opinion is not absolute, none is, however majority wins, wether they're right or wrong.
People use DF because they expect easy win, easy tokens, easy prize, no complication, there's a black sheep? Kick him.
So yeah people also use PF for wins, but different wins; farm, they use it to set groups who want to run it hundreds of time for their pony, not a one time kill.

Well king said it all :)

Also, you want a good T6 training party? Set up a static that will train with you for T6 AND the upcoming raids, raids are group content, not solo, if you wanna play solo, this is the wrong kind of game :/

Edit (daily limit)

I said majority wins, but i never said my opinion (pf training, df kill) is the majority's, after all I did said that no one's opinion is absolute, and honestly I'm glad I haven't played with the majority of players in ARR cuz in that case it'd mean there are not that many players, it's just that most of the people I have played with seems to think alike.

However I have one last thing to say, what I agree the most is about your title, no matter the game, if it always is the same it'll end up boring, we need new stuff, not rehashed stuff :/

The power of DF is anonymity. People who queue for DF are going to do it for a lot of reasons and just because one group is more vocal than the other does not make it the majority. In general, people tend to be more vocal when they have something to complain about, and it's the same thing with DF and people complaining about inexperienced players entering the queue.

I mean we can go back and forth on it all day.

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Originally Posted by Colt47

... not because they wanted to have content built to ever higher difficulty standards to make sure they didn't mow through things too quickly. ... PF makes sense if someone is trying to build a party of people with prior knowledge of the fight, it makes no sense not to allow DF for simple learning.

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Static group form because DF just doesn't work with this kind of "whole party dance in sync or you wipe" content that we have been getting.

In DF, you get 90 mins to do something, and it takes really only <15 minute to complete if you have a party that knows what they are doing. The other 75 minutes is teaching others what to do, if no one rage quits after the 1st wipe.

New content? Yeah, I made a post and suggested SE should bring back the 1.23 multi-job style multi-phase boss fights, and I got blasted. Basically, people are too contempt with theme park play and only wants it simple. We have 2 tanks, 2 heals, and 5 dps jobs, but all of that might as well just be 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 range dps, and 1 melee dps as the job distinction is non-existence. Multi-job would work for something like ST Extreme. Shame.

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Originally Posted by kingatlas

why you guys feeding the troll anyways, this is the same thread 10 million people have made b4, cry cry its to hard, let me have my stuff for free.
I don't like something stamp my feet have a tantrum.

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Don't cry when people make a thread you disagree with? And for that matter you really like making assumptions.

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Originally Posted by AttacKat

Static group form because DF just doesn't work with this kind of "whole party dance in sync or you wipe" content that we have been getting.

In DF, you get 90 mins to do something, and it takes really only <15 minute to complete if you have a party that knows what they are doing. The other 75 minutes is teaching others what to do, if no one rage quits after the 1st wipe.

New content? Yeah, I made a post and suggested SE should bring back the 1.23 multi-job style multi-phase boss fights, and I got blasted. Basically, people are too contempt with theme park play and only wants it simple. We have 2 tanks, 2 heals, and 5 dps jobs, but all of that might as well just be 1 tank, 1 healer, 1 range dps, and 1 melee dps as the job distinction is non-existence. Multi-job would work for something like ST Extreme. Shame.

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You pretty much nailed it with the first sentence. They basically designed end game with the group dance methodology, then implemented Duty Finder roulette to reduce the time it takes to group up, only to not really address the issue that the Duty finder group has to learn how to operate together in addition to the group dance. Hence why some people often say the purpose of the DF is for guaranteed kills.

1) Can't really agree on this. The HM versions of the new primals (Mog, Levi, Ramuh) are scaled to the same tier of difficulty that the HM primals are. With your method we'd have a "story mode" Leviathan be what Levi HM currently is, and then a Leviathan HM takes the place of Levi EX even though EX is -definitely- in the realm of EX primals, and then we'd also have a Levi EX that'd have to be even harder... meaning what, Twintania-level hard? It just doesn't fit.

2) We'd all love this. The devs know that we want it. At this point making more threads on something the devs have put the PLFTI stamp on is borderline harassment.

3) There's exactly two things in the game that have a lockout: Second Coil, and Syrcus Tower. The latter is locked behind CT, which is pathetically easy to clear at this point, and the former is locked behind echo-nerfed Twintania, and frankly if you can't beat her you're not going to be able to handle Melusine or Nael. (Raff maybe, and The Avatar is easymodo, but not those two.)

4) Not sure who said DF isn't for simple learning, other than a gaggle of elitist punks who don't belong playing a social game in the first place. You wanna learn in DF that's fine, just be equally willing to teach if you jump into a DF and find a new player. Hell, I landed in a T4 once with a tank who hadn't looked up even the slightest bit of information on it, and y'know what? I was all set to (begrudgingly) explain things before one of the other members bawled her out to the point where she quit.

Not to mention, you can't -use- DF for the very hardest content anyways. The only major difficulties in trying to DF lie with Titan EX and Twintania, and both of those have echo support.

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Originally Posted by Phyllo

I agree with all but the last thing you talked about in your (4), PF is for making learning parties, DF is for sure kill, or at least was intended to be.
you can't train in DF when 80% of your team comes from a different server, the moment your party breaks up you restart from scratch.

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Hahahaa lol ... Ahem yeah.
Df pt is NEVER a sure kill for EX fights. Treat it as learning only. The pt breaks up after but you'll have the experience anyway.

2.4 aint out bro or else you`d be seeing ninjas everywhere