Please add clearance condition to Group Finder

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Originally Posted by TomTom1968

That's where I beg to differ. When I join a Daily Roulette, I am up for anything. People on their 1st attempt, people not really knowing what they do. I know it may take longer and live with it. When I do Low Level Roulette as Tank, a dungeon can take up to one hour if you have team mates who want to see the whole dungeon and kill all enemies for EXP. That's all OK because it is the nature of the Roulette and I am open to help people if I see they struggle and take the time needed without giving up early like some do. I also help FC mates or join training parties to help if I have time.

But how on Earth am I supposed to search for players when I aim for a quick kill? Last week where I was without my static clearly showed me that you can put up anything in Group Finder as description and still people join who need lots of training or just hope for a win because the rest of the group is experienced instead of having killed it and already knowing what to do for it like asked for in the description. Not sure if I really ask for too much with it or if it is already seen as "Elitist attitude" lol. There are times where I like to pick specific players for specific goals. And downing something I have on Farm mode is something I want to do fast. It is an option I would choose for maybe 5% of the groups I search for, a vast minority so to say. And of course, you should only be able to check it if you have cleared it on your own as well so it is basically setting a requirement you meet on your own.

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The consequence I see from this is PF will become the "elitist finder", have you done content on DF first or a part of a gracious FC? No? Well then don't use PF because everyone is going to have "no noobs" checked, because.. why not? lol

I'm all for removing negative stress where possible, or allowing it as a form of decision tool.. currently I see the stress as the tool to decide if you really care if there is one noob. So, if that stress is removed all I ask is to add a new stress (like missing out on an awesome opportunity to get a big pay out for helping someone).

And again just to be clear since I know I'm going against you and have used prejudice (is loaded with history baggage.. >.>), I don't mean to say you are evil - I understand you want less stress but not to hurt anyone. I just believe it will end up hurting the community in the long run, at least without any sort of new counter balance to make that "stress" still there but in a different form.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Except those people WON'T change to the type that wants to help new people. Even people who don't mind helping grow tired of helping every single person they come across. But when we just want to not deal with them, we have no way to filter them out except to just not do the content we want done for the most part. People say the content is what forces people into statics. I say it's the playerbase.

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Coil lockouts definitely help force players into statics, I would disagree that it is solely the player-base (if that was what you were getting at). The point of adding extra bounty wasn't to say everyone would choose to help out now, it would just be used to keep similar ratio of willing to help and not. Rather than easy mode button that just lets people do it without consequence. If you make something easier you should expect it happens more often, because those who already did it will be sure to do it at greater efficiency and those who didn't because it was just a pia will do it too. If the system works as desired "PF = Win Groups" then ticking the option off will become unlikely and PF becomes "Elitist Finder". Already be one of us or don't join, no learning to be one of us except for the lucky in FC or lol gl with DF.

Lockouts never forced statics in other mmos I played. It's purely a playerbase thing. The reason to form a static, and guess what, that static can be more than 8 if the people aren't greedy as all get out, is to keep ONLY the good players you know. That's what it is. I see far too many who don't care to improve, their choice of course, but still want to do the content they should be improving for.

If the average player actually tried to improve to down the content, we likely wouldn't have many of the issues we do. But until that happens, ie it won't, people need to learn what is and isn't for them.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Lockouts never forced statics in other mmos I played. It's purely a playerbase thing. The reason to form a static, and guess what, that static can be more than 8 if the people aren't greedy as all get out, is to keep ONLY the good players you know. That's what it is. I see far too many who don't care to improve, their choice of course, but still want to do the content they should be improving for.

If the average player actually tried to improve to down the content, we likely wouldn't have many of the issues we do. But until that happens, ie it won't, people need to learn what is and isn't for them.

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Seeing as we've probably played similar mmos (from reading your posts before) and having seen these games with lockouts cause statics to be made, and plenty of guild stress to be had - I'm going to continue to say it helps create statics and that it is a barrier to social interaction on a larger front for the community. Lockouts promotes bubble play, imo (lol). Though I do get the benefit in this disagreement, I only need a few having had lockouts promote statics to say it as a fact. "Drinking too much water can kill you" is true because of a few cases, even if the vast majority isn't true. In my experience lockouts are a serious cause to make organized player groups, frustrations about other players, and hilarious time management. I'm sure some statics work better, but I have not been blessed to see one yet.

I have seen a few people in a guild happy with their static but they were clearly unaware of the people outside of their bubble of bliss as the main group freely picked up extras when needed but other wise "oh well mates, its a static - too bad we dont have an even number of players, you're not my favorite, you're not in my list, once I do this I can't do it with anyone else, static". Made other members feel like "the others", the undesirables except on special occasion, summoned up stairs for a party to be sent back down stairs. I will be jealous of you if all your statics have been fields of rainbows filled with merry goobbues.

Forming a static for good players seems like a legitimate reason to make a static, I would still insist that lockouts do /promote/ statics.. ;P

I'm all for making some Maat fights to thoroughly test and teach players at each stage towards end game - at least to make playing at end game more consistent and to damage to both the demands and reasons to employ social bubbling systems. "oh look you can join the queue, you are clearly are good enough to beat Maat 3.0"

The difference between having Maat ability tests and allowing a noob lockout is that players can demonstrate their abilities and earn their ticket in the social world and partake without or at least with minimum discrimination, a noob lock would do no such thing except make it suck to be a new person (they are nearing the same thing but one is a self contained event with little regard to social conditions, the other one is large system breaching many contents hinged on social actions).

Why are people assuming people who haven't cleared content are bads and will be incapable? Or will it just be devestating getting someone without a clear who plays better than you?

Honestly I can see where the op is coming from but I think potentially you're missing out on good players just because you're assuming someone who hasn't cleared the stuff is terrible. You've still got the potential to end up with morons who got carried.

Having said if the option was there it'd make no difference to me, their party their rulez blah blah. I would probably would not use it, unless I reaaaallly wanted to clear something in a hurry, but even then it's not going to be foolproof.

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Originally Posted by Yahavage

Why are people assuming people who haven't cleared content are bads and will be incapable? Or will it just be devestating getting someone without a clear who plays better than you?

Honestly I can see where the op is coming from but I think potentially you're missing out on good players just because you're assuming someone who hasn't cleared the stuff is terrible. You've still got the potential to end up with morons who got carried.

Having said if the option was there it'd make no difference to me, their party their rulez blah blah. I would probably would not use it, unless I reaaaallly wanted to clear something in a hurry, but even then it's not going to be foolproof.

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The part you're missing is that people join when they don't meet the requirements. Some will ask of course, but most will just join and try to pass off as experienced. People are allowed to set their own rules, regardless of how you or I think, but many people don't care and intentionally join and mess these people up.

I am all with you about helping new players. But why support them even on farm/kill parties? Everybody can start a Group search on their own, setting their own conditions. If you do not meet them or do not like them, just do not join. A farm/kill party is not meant for new players and I really hope this is not already seen as Elitism.

If they look for help, they should start a Search asking for help. Then those who want to help people with training can join. I do that actually once in a while when I see T5 parties up when I remember how long I needed to get that fight done. It can actually be quite enjoying and satisfying to help some people to beat a certain phase or help them to win a fight. But it should be a choice I make and not something I am forced into because somebody gives a crap about the requirements set in the Group Search.

The problem I see is that not enough people want to spend the time looking for a training party or training for specific phases. They just hop into any party open, knowing the conditions and also knowing they do not meet the requirements but still, they join. And sadly, the 1-2 persons who should have never joined such parties take care that the people who really have it on Farm mode leave the party after a few wipes. Do the new or better said not kill experienced players care about this? Nope, they don't. They join and hope for the best (for them). You can call the people opening win/kill/farm parties elitists but ppl joining these fights without meeting the requirements are selfish at least. What's worse? Asking for people in the same boat or claiming to be something you aren't. I don't know.

And I do not think people who haven't cleared a content are bad. We all start with training but Coil is so unforgiving that you need experience in all phases several times to win it. Some learn quicker than others but bottom line is, when I want a party full of people who have downed it already, it should be possible. And since you can't bet on players beeing honest, why not ask for a Game feature to prevent it.

Bad idea, I have had some people not have the clear but perform very well, it just so happens that some people do know the fight, they just need others to know it as well.

I don't know why people think just because someone does not have said clear that means they don't actually know the fight. You can ask for experienced players, but locking them out just because they don't have the clear is a prejudice choice, i have had plenty of

"i have the clear" players join a farm group and they were dead all the time, what they didn't tell you is that they were dead the entire time on their clear and was carried to victory, but so long as they have the win, they can join, right?

I see nothing good coming out of an option like this.

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Originally Posted by ispano

The part you're missing is that people join when they don't meet the requirements. Some will ask of course, but most will just join and try to pass off as experienced. People are allowed to set their own rules, regardless of how you or I think, but many people don't care and intentionally join and mess these people up.

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Meh I suppose. I guess I keep thinking somewhere that people aren't that douchebaggy. No idea why really :) Surely it can't affect that many PF's though...?

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Originally Posted by Yahavage

Meh I suppose. I guess I keep thinking somewhere that people aren't that douchebaggy. No idea why really :) Surely it can't affect that many PF's though...?

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Really depends on what the PF is for. And, yes, people really are like that. Not related to the thread topic persay, but earlier I went into a Hullbreaker as WHM. Tank ran off in Sword Oath, and ignoring that was doing a horrible job picking up adds. I mentioned the Oath and he switched, then said he was drunk. At which point I told him not to queue. Apparently I should deal with it however, according to him anyways. I see these people fairly often. Not all the time of course, but often enough to be annoying.

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Originally Posted by TomTom1968

You can call the people opening win/kill/farm parties elitists but ppl joining these fights without meeting the requirements are selfish at least. What's worse? Asking for people in the same boat or claiming to be something you aren't. I don't know.

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Good question :P

If I had infinite resources, official development experience ? lol, and an mmo (really goes under resources, so.. so.. expensive :P) - I'd probably try to enforce solo "proof of ability" contents, and then either depending on demand allow the option to segregate further but encourage not to.. or just not allow it.

The reward would have to be significant for the hardest contents, but not something that would cause people to level up fake characters just to abuse the new person benefit. Serious thought needed for a reward, but I don't think the current one is large enough for the really hard contents - more of a nice thing to see if it works out.

Again though, because I wouldn't want bad players just getting encouragement to be bad I would set up Job quests at given ilvl tiers ensuring you can indeed play your job. Job quests used to be harder but SE nerfed em.. perhaps for intro to level 50 it should be this way, I don't think it should be that way for all time though. I know it is impossible to prevent all scenarios but the hope here would be you see a player join that is new, you're excited to teach them because helping people is fun and because oh wow! you get the chance to earn x awesome tokens or chest, and then finally you know they don't suck completely because they finished that really hard solo* quest(s) you did and there is no way they could have been carried through that synced quest.

*Any scenario that is largely self driven proving to yourself, with limited stress from others, that you know your job. Making this your "I'm not a noob" ticket. Wouldn't need a "no new people" button if everyone you saw wasn't an un-trainable mess lol. I know what you say about really bad people who got pulled through content.. maybe we can fix a large amount of that issue without addressing it in the social sphere? I think most people are trainable but just need to be given the chance and tools*, I like teaching and explaining mechanics, but as I said I've met a few people who just don't care to learn or are not currently in the right mindset to apply the knowledge they're taking in. *The tools is a big thing that is harder to train, and something that I think SE could greatly help with by making these suggested quests.