Please Do NOT Introduce Another Melee Tank

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Originally Posted by LygerZero

swtor has a ranged tank in the bounty hunter/trooper and actually works damn well. A ranged tank in this game isn't that far off base imho

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One of the key abilities for a vanguard/power tech is a melee rocket punch, and most of their abilities are conal/AoE around them as the start point. A shadow or assassin is more of a ranged tank as they could do an entire rotation at range, they just don't as it cripples them and would be a nightmare for dps.

The concept of a ranged tank is pretty much impossible unless you have a turret boss who can't move. However, it may be interesting to have a magic tank using high threat spells rather than hitting things, but ultimately they need to be in melee range else they'll just be kiting.

Fingers crossed for Whip wielding dodge tank.

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Originally Posted by Kitsu

The idea of a Samurai tank would be crazy close to what Warrior already is.

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Not really. There's a lot of mechanics for tanking that have not been touched with WAR and PLD. Parries, damage split, dodges, stacked damage reduction, short-cooldown abilities, etc.

PLD is your textbook tank with cooldowns and a defensive stance. WAR got a small self-heal and a damage shield. There's plenty that can be done with SAM.

I'm going off the idea that black mage has different abilities than a bard. I'm not a class designer, I'll admit that - I don't know how to design a class within FFXIV's very safe system. But I think there's more potential for something like a red mage tank, which would have magic based debuffs, probably haste, and increased magic-defense.

What would you give Samurai that Warrior doesn't already use? Parries? Both tanks have parries. Evasion? Warrior already has an Evasion ability... Heals? What warrior is supposed to be based on, but they aren't great.

If you're looking for an example... Throw in an RDM-like class as a tank with a different weapon than a sword.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Pretty much what Eye_Gore said. Most mobs move into melee range of what they have agro on so you may start at ranged and then everything will close on you and will be in melee range.

Ranged tanking may work in other games, but I don't really see a purely ranged tank working in this game. I would of course love to have SE prove me wrong on this.

As for a tank that was not your typical tank archetype of wearing heavy armor and carrying a big weapon or shield, there have been many ideas and suggestions for more finesse or magical based tanks such as some of the ideas for Mystic/ Rune Knight where defense was based off of the use age of magical ward, shields, sigils, etc.

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Well said. The tank would probably have to have a melee weapon of some kind, for auto-attacks and some abilities, but I think there should be a core emphasis in the next tank on those things you mentioned, or perhaps spells that are debuffs, buffs, etc.

Paladins DO have a few spells, but they're so lackluster... I'd like to see something with an emphasis on magic instead.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

"no-shield large-weapon"
Katana is only 60~73cm, I don't think that constitutes large weapon.

I do believe Warrior axe is 110cm+, which is what I believe Dark Knight's 2H (if it gets) will be.

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This is slightly incorrect. You have two different types of measurements (total and blade length) that are not specified in your post. The average blade length of a katana is 60-75 cm, which does not include the handle of ~27-38cm. This would make the total katana length somewhere between ~87-113 cm. Also, given that the Samurai weapon before Tachi was also even larger (70– 80cm blade, not including handle).... I would say yes, Samurai's use large weapons. This is hardly my point, though. -_-

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Originally Posted by Rbstr

The only way to do a "ranged" tank in the game would be to use a pet-like thing that the mob wails away on while the tank is someplace else.
I can't imagine that'd work too well...but it sounds kinda cool in concept.

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I actually pretty much had an idea like this when I was thinking of how to make a "ranged tank" in this game and this was the only really viable solution to this that I could think of.

Quick breakdown of the basics for what is needed for a tank to be able to tank.
- single target agro generation and control: attacks/abilities that generate and maintain agro against a single target.
- aoe agro generation and control: attacks/abilities that generate and maintain agro against multiple targets.
- positioning: the ability to control where a mob is located and what direction they are facing.
- damage mitigation: the ability to reduce or manage the damage being done to them.

Most of those were easy to adapt to a ranged tank design, except positioning. I originally debated having a tank that would be able to have bind effects attached to their attacks so they could keep range, but that would break fights as most mobs would then not be able to attack the tank at all or it would not work against bosses and the such and therefore was not a viable option.

This led me to thinking about pet tanking and how that could potentially be tweaked to make a fun and interesting ranged tank, which resulted in my concept for the "ranged" pet-based DoM tank the Illusionist (ILN).

My concept for the Illusionist is a bit of a departure from the version of the class that appeared in the FF Tactics titles and is more inspired by the Mesmer class from Guild Wars 2.

The basic concept is a DoW caster class that weaves illusions and summons phantasms to misdirect enemies and control the battlefield.

The bread and butter for the Illusionist is the ability to summon Phantasms. Phantasms act like summoned pets similar to SMN but with a few major differences.
- Phantasms have a MP cost to summon.
- There would be two types of Phantasms: Phantasmal Guardian, a melee tank and Phantasmal Mage, a ranged dps.
-The majority of the ILN's abilities would be linked to the Phantasms and are functionally pet commands, where when activated they have the Phantasm perform a special action.
-Direct control over a Phantasm requires the ILN to have that Phantasm targeted otherwise they just run off of AI.
-The ILN can control the position of the Phantasms by telling them to go to a specific location, move to the ILN's current location, or to follow the ILN.
-When a phantasm is damaged X% of the damage received is taken by the ILN.
-Phantasms cannot be healed by party members as they are not real and only the ILN can use abilities to maintain them. Also some protective spells will not work on them such as protect, but others will like stoneskin similar to chocobo companions.
-The ILN will unlock the ability to summon more than one phantasm at a time, my guess would be two max for balance purposes and performance concerns. This can be any combo of the two types (2 tanks, 1 tank + 1 dps, 2 dps).
- Illusions can be unsummoned at anytime. Class traits could be unlocked that cause an effect for when a summon is unsummoned or killed, such a short defense buff to the ILN or party when a tank phantasm goes away.

In addition to Phantasms, the Illusionist has other spells that can be directly used on targets. Here are some random ones that I thought up that could be neat.
- "Murderous Motley": Creates a glamour over a targeted enemy that makes them appear as a hostile target to their comrades, forcing them to turn on that target and attack it for X seconds. Bosses are immune to the effects of this. This could be an aoe agro control tool, but would not be as readily available as something like flash or overpower.
- "Horror": a target is bombarded with images of their worst fears, stunning them for X seconds.
- "Masking Shroud": shrouds a friendly target in illusionary mist, hiding them from sight. Greatly reduces agro on the affected target.

Keep in mind this is a very rough idea and would need a lot of fine tuning to make it viable and not a complicated mess to play, but I think that the concept is interesting and does have potential.

While some of these ideas are pretty cool, the game in its current state is just not set up for a ranged Tank. I can think of a ton of bosses where positioning is incredibly important, and you can't just ignore it. You also can't redo the entire game to fit this in.

So while the phantasm idea is cool, I really don't see SE doing any of this. And the next tank class will most likely be melee. Personally I don't think we need another tank class atm.

I touched on positioning and how that was really tough to do with ranged tanking but i did note that the ILN could reposition their phantasms in a number of ways to give them more fine control.
The only part that leaves me a little stumped with pet tanking is quick reactionary movements, such as dodging a telegraphed aoe attack. This could potentially be handled by having two tanking phantasms up and positioned well and then letting the one currently tanking to eat the attack and get killed and the mob then switching to the other tanking phantasm and then summoning another tank phantasm and placing it where the killed one was. You would then have to have the ILN have an ability that would stop them from taking damage when their phantasms take damage or greatly reducing it so that letting a tank phantasm eat a potentially lethal attack would not overly hurt the ILN. However that is way more complicated than simply moving out of the way like a melee tank would do and that is the main problem with my ILN concept, it is very complex and can require a lot of actions to do something that would be very simple for a melee tank.

My ILN idea was however not a "SE should do this" but more an exercise in whether it would be possible to do something like creating a ranged tank. I too believe that the next tank SE will be making is going to be melee. Also Yoshida said that we would probably be getting a new tank and healer class with the expansion. The expansion is a ways off, but since they have stated that no other classes/jobs were going to be added after Ninja until the expansion, the contemplation of what the next tank will be is relevant.

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Originally Posted by Kitsu

What would you give Samurai that Warrior doesn't already use? Parries? Both tanks have parries. Evasion? Warrior already has an Evasion ability... Heals? What warrior is supposed to be based on, but they aren't great.

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Parry may be a part of both current classes but it's certainly not an important part.
Warrior cross-classes an evasion up skill (that doesn't seem to work on anything in the Coil2) and one damage sill of little utility....that hardly an evasion tank makes. Especially because in the event there is an evasion tank it will surely not work on the all-or-nothing dodge mechanic we see in game now.

Many people envision a SAM tank as something akin to swordmaster in Bravely Default. They use skills that trigger trigger counter attacks and reduce incoming damage.

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Originally Posted by Kitsu

P.S. Please also revamp Paladin and Warrior before another tank is added so people don't abandon ship.

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Who cares if they do? Tanks are tanks. Honestly, I can't see a new tank class making a bunch of healers/DPS have a random epiphany and decide to play tank instead (aside from, y'know, leveling it up to level it up or completionism). Maining tank takes a certain kind of person; i personally think that it's very likely that the vast majority of people that swap to the new tank class were already maining PLD or WAR anyway.

As long as there's tanks in the DF, who cares what class they are?

As far as a non-melee tank... I really don't see how that would work.