The "To DPS" vs "Not DPS" Debate

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Originally Posted by ariaandkia

I think the decision should really be on the HEALER, not the party. If the healer feels that they are better off not DPSing, then the healer should NOT DPS. If the healer feels that they are better off DPSing, then the healer SHOULD DPS.

It isn't "an intentional decision to not give a full effort." That is assuming things.

As I mentioned before, there are plenty of reasons why a healer might not want to DPS. Now, I will usually try to do what the party asks, but... If I'm spamming cure II just trying to keep the tank alive because he is taking so much damage that doing anything else will kill him (and he is literally hanging on by a thread), and you tell me to start DPSing? I will tell you to pay attention to the situation.

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A healer must exercise personal judgement, yes. And there are plenty of reasons not to DPS at a given moment - the need to regenerate mp, threat, anticipation of incoming damage, and so on.

But at no point did I say that healers should start DPSing at inappropriate times...

The original assertion by the original poster was to discredit the notion that "You are a bad healer if all you do is heal". So my point is, if ALL you do is heal, then there will be times when you could opt to DPS, with no downside, and you are choosing not to. If you're not playing your class to the best of your ability, you are reducing the utility of the group. Tanks and dps also have abilities they could simply ignore while still doing their core function. Is a healer special in this regard, that they are above critique? I would argue that no such lofty position exists. It is a team effort and everyone has a role to play.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

I think this contradicts itself. A healer who only heals is not adaptable.

The point at which a player is "bad" is subjective, but refusing to DPS is simply ignoring a a substantial part of the class toolkit. It would be like a paladin who refuses to use sword oath. The argument might go - a paladin is a tank so you can't call a paladin bad for refusing to maximize their DPS while not tanking a mob.

Either way, it's an intentional decision to not give a full effort, which affects other players, and given it's a team game other people do have the right to express their concerns when the group is not doing its best.

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I don't believe a player is "bad" if they are completing the role clearly defined to them. However, I do believe that this player is only "okay" as they aren't making full use of their toolbox. The "good" players are those that make full use of their toolbox while completing the desired task - going up and beyond their role to give added value to their party. Your rating in a party can fall somewhere between these three points (bad being the lowest, okay in the middle, and good at the highest).

The point you quoted is worded a bit poorly, it should read something more akin to really good healers are the adaptable ones, but not going up and beyond your role doesn't make you bad either.

Just to remark in the grey areas, some people are incapable of micro'ing Cleric's Stance, but still do an exceptional job healing. These types of players may be better suited to massive speed run style pulls where they have to heal almost non-stop. Alternatively, the situation may not allow for the healer to DPS at all, such as one time I was doing AK back in 2.0 and the DRG and WAR I was with refused to move out of red lines. Needless to say, I couldn't DPS very often due to the circumstances of the situation (and not for lack of trying either).

I will concede though, if its blatantly obvious you aren't trying, I'm going to label you as bad. If it's clear you're new, I will give pointers and try to advise as needed to help your healing become better (generally happens in low level DR with sub-30 dungeons).

I will also concede that it is frustrating when someone doesn't adapt to a situation, and if they did, you would've just barely cleared that milestone .-.

If DPS turn to healing then they are not DPSing. A DPS who helps with healing is less effective than a DPS who cannot heal.

You are more effective doing the role that you signed up to perform in duty. The only time you should be doing DPS and I mean, fast DPS like DOT damage not 2.80 second cast time of Holy is on trash (if the tank is not dying) plenty of time I've had a healer spam Holy while my HP is 20%. On big boss fights heals should not dps and instead should be keeping their MP pools good for when the shit hits the fan.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

If DPS turn to healing then they are not DPSing. A DPS who helps with healing is less effective than a DPS who cannot heal.

You are more effective doing the role that you signed up to perform in duty. The only time you should be doing DPS and I mean, fast DPS like DOT damage not 2.80 second cast time of Holy is on trash (if the tank is not dying) plenty of time I've had a healer spam Holy while my HP is 20%. On big boss fights heals should not dps and instead should be keeping their MP pools good for when the shit hits the fan.

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I personally think there is a time and a place for everything. A DPS might have a good reason to help with healing. For example, healer is struggling to heal and I notice that the tank will die soon, enemies are nowhere near dead. I'll mix in a few heals with my DPS rotations just to keep the tank stable. Or healer is being attacked and I can't pull aggro fast enough to save the healer, I might throw some heals to buy some time for the tank to react or for the healer to find some way to recover. Yes, my DPS is less effective, but I'm helping the party more than if I were to just DPS. It really depends on the situation.

Example, Healer disconnected. I notice, nobody else notices. I happen to have physick ready in case of this situation occurring. I quickly switch to healing and heal until the boss is dead, then I tell the party that we should wait for the actual healer to return.

So instead of a party wipe, I temporarily reduce my DPS in exchange for keeping the party alive. I think all the generalizations here are pretty bad because there are exceptions to most of them.

It should be noted that new players looking at this should wait and get a feel for the healing part before diping into the dps as well. Seen to many new healers spam stone, tank dies, and they look like derps because they didnt heal at all. Once ok, twice no, third time kick.

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Originally Posted by Yuichi

It should be noted that new players looking at this should wait and get a feel for the healing part before diping into the dps as well. Seen to many new healers spam stone, tank dies, and they look like derps because they didnt heal at all. Once ok, twice no, third time kick.

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Agreed, hence why I laid it out as such to state that your number one priority is to heal first, DPS second.

So Summmoners don't ressurect people
DPS casters dont use virus or apothasistitis whatevermagiky, or eye for an eye
Monks / Bards dont use mantra, mana song, or anything like that
ect ect

Because that doesn't help them dps right?

Bads who cannot see outside there role to the maximum of the potential of there class for the group will always be bad.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

If DPS turn to healing then they are not DPSing. A DPS who helps with healing is less effective than a DPS who cannot heal.

You are more effective doing the role that you signed up to perform in duty. The only time you should be doing DPS and I mean, fast DPS like DOT damage not 2.80 second cast time of Holy is on trash (if the tank is not dying) plenty of time I've had a healer spam Holy while my HP is 20%. On big boss fights heals should not dps and instead should be keeping their MP pools good for when the shit hits the fan.

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Keeping people more healthy than alive is pointless, healer would just stand idle a lot in this case.

During most of fights healer will not run out of mana, unless he is massively overhealing and reviving bad players that would die again anyway. It's much better to keep only core people alive and let the rest stay dead (rage quit if they want). Thus saving mana is pointless.

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Originally Posted by Staris

Bads who cannot see outside there role to the maximum of the potential of there class for the group will always be bad.

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My intent was to at least indicate that there is a grade a player can achieve between these two points, and not just "Yay, you're awesome!" and "OMG YOU'RE HORRIBLE". Just because you aren't making full use off your toolbox doesn't mean you're a bad player, it just means you're performing your role, but you can continue to improve. There are just too many condescending and meaningless posts screaming "YOU'RE BAD IF YOU ONLY HEAL" or "YOU'RE BAD IF YOU DPS AS HEALER" that I wanted to make a vain attempt to at least quell those remarks by injecting some form of logic into it (keyword, vain).

For myself, I am not content with my playing until I can optimize the majority of my toolbox myself. However, for some people, they are okay with just being "okay" and as long as I'm tanking and I'm not a bloody smear on the ground, I'm okay with that from a healer (though I may have varying degrees of ire that I keep to myself depending on how often my HP hits the flashing point and for how long).

This isn't a two sided coin we're discussing here, this is a scale with every grey area in between the minimum and maximum points.

I agree with Ghishlain. In my opinion, if all you do is heal you can still be a good healer, especially if you can keep your group alive through over pulls and near wipes. DPSing only really comes in when damage taken is so low that you're just standing there dozing off (which happens WAY too often in ffxiv content). Personally, I hate doing damage in group/raid content - I feel like a gimped Summoner with a healbot fairy following me aroung when I do 4 man content. I do it, because it's the efficient thing to do, but it brings me no pleasure and on a bad day if I'm not in the mood I won't even bother with dps. I can still handle all the damage that comes our way and usually I would just urge the tank to pull more so that I'm healing at my comfort zone and have no time to dps.