Who was Baldric Thorne?

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Super-interesting history stuff.

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All of that is really fascinating and also very sad, since it implies that Princess Edvya didn't have a happy adulthood what with her family probably overthrown and all . . . which is also pretty realistic so I like it. So many real-world holidays also have tragic back-stories underlying all the festivities.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

...the sultan at the time of the war and fall of Sil'dih was Sasagan Ul Sisigan and the timing of Sil'dih's fall was between the year 1272 and 1372. What the Thornes' might have been were a noble family that tossed out the ruling sultan/sultana with the help of a "Syndicate," seizing power and establishing their own rule. Eventually they themselves were done away with and the Ul-name came back into place...

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That sounds to me like the best place to start for a theory. Ul'dah, as far as we know, has always been brutally capitalist, and if a member of a syndicate-like group were to seize power, this would be exactly how and why. I'm guessing Thorne would have been among those who figured out how to magick the helms that enslaved the Hecatonchiers in the first place, leading to the record profits behind which he might have thrown his weight in the seizing of power.

The thing is, Sasagan Ul Sisigan is referred to as the founder of Ul'dah and first sultan, and he indeed saw the war on Sil'dih to victory. So, when was the line broken? If it was after Sil'dih fell, we can assume that Thorne was outed largely due to his economic failure with the Heconatonchiers, but if he interrupted Sisigan's rule, perhaps he was re-established when the lalafellin wars renewed? At least we know that it doesn't contradict anything yet seeing as the current Sultana is known as being the second Ul Dynasty.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

The thing is, Sasagan Ul Sisigan is referred to as the founder of Ul'dah and first sultan, and he indeed saw the war on Sil'dih to victory. So, when was the line broken? If it was after Sil'dih fell, we can assume that it was largely due to his economic failure with the Heconatonchiers, but if he interrupted Sisigan's rule, perhaps he was re-established when the lalafellin wars renewed? At least we know that it doesn't contradict anything yet seeing as the current Sultana is known as being the second Ul Dynasty.

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So we have Sasagan Ul Sisigan the founder of Ul'dah, then the Thorne Dynasty, then Sasagan Ul Sisigan mentioned again again for the defeat of Sil'dih? Am I understanding that right?

Could Sasagan Ul Sisigan be a Regnal Name and so we have in fact two of them, the original and then the restorer/second dynasty founder who named himself after the original?

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Originally Posted by FJerome

Could Sasagan Ul Sisigan be a Regnal Name and so we have in fact two of them, the original and then the restorer/second dynasty founder who named himself after the original?

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I doubt it; that'd be making the lore far too confusing to follow - and I imagine they'd give it a modifier of some sort if it were a regnal name, such as Sasagan Ul Sisigan II. The Lalafell naming conventions imply that he was simply Sasagan Sisigan and used only the Ul as a regnal name when he founded his city. We're usually given very general dates ("a century back," "six hundred years ago"); round numbers. Therefore, when you have a lot of things happening at once - Sasagan, Sil'dih, Thorne, Hecatons - it can be hard to place them in the proper order. We've never heard of a Thorne before Little Ladies' Day - and it's weird to hear of a Hyur on the throne around the same time we know Sasagan was making history. These things are the source of this confusion.

I'm leaning towards the progression that Sil'dih fell, then Thorne took power and was deposed after a short time - a rise and fall having to do with his economic successes with the enslaving on the Hecaton. Then we see the restoration of the Ul Dynasty through Sasagan's descendants, leading up to the current Sultana of the second Ul Dynasty.

1. I'm speculating from real world that when the Thorne Dynasty line ends aka no other Thorne alive suitable for crown sucession, its very possible that the last Thorne sultan/sultana might have a loyal Lalafell royal advisor / general / vassal / herald / majordomo / vizier which was deemed worthy of being a ruler.
2. Sure its quite possible too that the peaceful succession didn't happened and a Lalafell might've attempted a coup or rebellion or assassination however since Hyur and Lalafell don't have any racial tensions in Uldah that would've born form past suspicions or tensions tat surely stemmed from a past coup / rebellion, that leaves us with assassination of the last Thorne sultan/sultana possible scenario.
3. or we have a third possible scenario here, where the Thorne Dynasty have Hyur-Lalafell blood relations, as we all know how inter racial marriage happened and thus peaceful succession happened inside the royal family.

So now that I've thought on it more, a Lalafell-Hyur relationship isn't as crazy as one would think...my thought is the Raubahn and the Sultana Nanamo Ul Namo relationship is a nod to this (sure I'm probably reaching for something that isn't there but hey I'm giving SE a reason to use this Lore wise).

Now Lore wise going back over my timeline I found another name of a sultan: Sultana Nanasha Ul Nasha whom ruled in 1422 6A.E. and created the Miner Guild during the Mad Mythril Rush. So somewhere between 1272 and 1422 the Thorne Dynasty was broken and the Ul name returned (and with it the Lalafell line). I think the Great Giant Revolt would definitely be a time where Thorne could have lost power and the Ul return. This next part might be incorrect but I'm going with it for the purpose of this theory: if the Sultan Sworn was formed around 972 6A.E. and this coincided with the founding of Ul'dah and Sasagan Ul Sisigan's rule then we also gain a better time of when Sil'dih existed. Takes things like these threads to help me realize the broader picture.

It's always possible that Thorne and his daughter were Lalafells with non-Lalafell names. In real world history, royalty sometimes change their names for political expediency. In the United Kingdom, the royal family changed their name from "Saxe-Coburg" to "Windsor" before World War I due to anti-German sentiment. Perhaps the Thorne family took up Hyur names in order to seem more sympathetic to the Hyur population at a time when there were more Hyur than Lalafell?

After all... it is called little ladies' day!

Baldric Thorne is a Highland Hyur name. It's apparent somewhere in the Ul-line that the Thornes were able to takeover. Ul'dah has always been about gold(gil) being power. So it's easy to dream a scenario where the rich were able to overtake the sultan/sultana and seize power. Funny enough I'd say the end of the Thorne line is because of the loss of the Copperbell Mines and the money/power that came with it, this allowing the Ul-line to return (essentially losing the power the same way they gained it and another speculation being maybe with the invention of the magical helms for the Hecatonchiers being the cause for both rise and downfall as Moose stated). After all as Moose stated and anyone can find out, Sultana Nanamo Ul Namo is the part of the second dynasty of the Ul-line but she is also the 17th descendent. Lalafell live a very long time so the number 17 is even bigger if we consider a sultan/sultana living their entire life with the title and only in death relinquishing the power to a new, Ul'dah is also all about death and assassinations so that makes it even more fun if we speculate that a sultan/sultana or two were killed by their own family.

Now if we knew the founding date of Ul'dah (probably around 972 6A.E. with the founding of the Sultan Sworn) we could find an average of how many years each sultan/sultana served. 17 for the Ul-line and I'd say at a minimum 3 Thornes because it's the Thorne Dynasty which means it was definitely more than 1 and 2 would just be too small, so a minimum of 3 if not more and if Baldric Thorne was a Hyur and Hyur have similar lifespans as us humans, they wouldn't live as long as the Lalafell barring assassinations.

Edit: Forgot another point, Edvya has the possibility of being a Hyur or Lalafell. A Hyur adopting a Lalafell could help the succession in Ul'dah, just a guess. With Midlander female names being based on Germanic and Normadic names, I can't find anything close to Edvya so I assume it's just a made up name. While Baldric is easily found with the meaning of bald bold and power and rule.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Baldric Thorne is a Midlander Hyur name.

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Actually, doesn't that sound more like a Highlander Hyur name according to the Lore?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ng-Conventions


Highlander first names are remarkably similar to medieval European names that have Germanic or Normandic roots.

As the Highlanders are a warring race, their last names tend to sound more...violent, as they will often adopt the colorful nicknames they have earned during battle.

Male

Aethlwold Hunter
Hunfrid Longblade
Lewenhart Boarsblood

Female

Sigberta Strong
Orieldis Blacke
Bergard Thorne

Edit: Also found this

Baldric: Derived from the Germanic elements bald "bold, brave" and ric "power, rule".

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

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Do we know if Sisigan and Nanamo are related? Could it be that when a Lalafell assumes the role, they adopt the "Ul" Name? Sisigan and Nanamo could not be related at all. They just share the "Ul" Part because they were/are both rulers.