Yep, its too much. They're going to buff warriors too much if those changes go live

Where are said changes?

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Originally Posted by Sybreed

This is exactly the sort of Chicken Little posting that makes developers not want to post patch notes to the public before things go live.

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Bingo.

I think that these changes will go a huge distance towards class balance. WAR will not suddenly become "OP" and throw PLD to the curb.

WAR will continue to lack a Silence. WAR will remain significantly more complicated and less forgiving to play optimally. WAR will have inferior burst mitigation. WAR will have comparable (within reasonable limits) DPS, threat, and sustained mitigation. WAR will still have less convenient and sustainable AoE threat management. WAR will, however, finally close the mitigation gap that currently exists, become significantly less spiky to heal, scale better with future content, and not be so far outclassed in every regime by PLD that it's only brought out of pity or due to individual excellence rather than any innate benefits to the class itself.

It'll be nice having 2 viable tanks instead of 1 + a bunch of people trying to cram a square peg into a round hole for the sake of a (currently) terrible class.

And before some gets on the lolGTFOPLD bandwagon, my WAR is 50 too, I like playing it more, it's not quite as geared (cuz myth tomes), and it's simply not worth the trouble bringing to Coil.

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Originally Posted by Amas

Bingo.
And before some gets on the lolGTFOPLD bandwagon, my WAR is 50 too, I like playing it more, it's not quite as geared (cuz myth tomes), and it's simply not worth the trouble bringing to Coil.

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Warriors will replace PLD like a red headed step child in almost all 4 man content...

DPS Higher check ... AOE threat check .... good mitigation check ... High HP pool for lazy healers to work with check

Also wont be surprised to see war replace pld as MT in many raid boss fights.

TBH all they had to do to fix warrior was to change the way they healed them self's. Make some heals for a decent amount over a few seconds and make IB slightly better for burst reactive healing.... Instead they did the lazy fix which was mess with Warrior mitigation skills. I think this will bite them in the ass as HP scales so damn well with mitigation... but w/e.

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Originally Posted by MBTL90

With these changes, wars will easily become the go to tanks for both AoE and burst mitigation. They are already better AoE tanks, and now wars will be much better than paladins on fights like Titan and Twintania. Having 20% DR up every Death sentence, in addition to the bigger HP pool will make wars by far the superior tank. To even approach that sort of mitigation every 30-35 sec, Paladins have to use a 1.5-2m cd. This isn't even counting them straight up adding another defensive cd to wars that is better than all but one of the CD's pallies have.

In a vacuum, the classes are probably close to each other. If you crunch the numbers, their average mitigation over a fight is now probably similar. Situationally, ie in all the content that matters right now, wars will be just better.

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It's not anywhere near that bad.

Shield Oath and Defiance are basically equal in terms of mitigation now (so the Higher HP pool doesn't count for anything - it's just WAR's "Shield Oath").

The cooldown-versus-cooldown issue is what it comes down to:

+ Inner Beast is basically -20% damage every ~22-24 seconds for 6 seconds. Not counting Infuriate.
+ Vengence is -30% damage for 15s every 120s. Unlike Inner Beast, it can be used before you start hitting something in order to weather Alpha Strikes.
+ Holmgang is a "can't be one-shot" ability - you can still be damaged to 1HP

+ Rampart is -20% damage every 90s for 20s
+ Sentinel is -40% every 180s for 10s
+ Bulwark is +60% block every 180s for 15s
+ Hallowed Ground is a true Invulnerability ability - you will stay at 100% HP for the duration

Each class will have a damage debuff in one of their weaponskills.

Then you have the extra 10% Healing from Convalescence, versus the extra 15s duration from Bloodbath and 25% higher uptime on Foresight.

And the Shield Blocks, and situational debuffs like GCD Stun, Blinds and Silences.

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Effectively, Paladins still have the edge in damage mitigated over time. On Average PLD's Shield Blocks will directly counter WAR's -20% damage from Inner Beast, but Blocks can't be relied upon to proc exactly when you want them to, so the other active cooldowns are for the "oh crap" moments.

In "real game" situations, it might well be that the low cooldown on Inner Beast is enough to push WAR into the "desired" role for certain boss fights where there is a scripted "single big hit" coming on a timer that is more regular than PLDs cooldowns allow for (every ~45 seconds you can have either Bulwark, Sentinel or Rampart up... with Conv and Foresight to fill in when needed or Hallowed in Emergencies) but on average PLD will still have higher mitigation over time. PLD can also stack more mitigation up all at once for extreme emergencies, and generate AoE enmity for longer (due to MP regen from Riot Blade and Flash, versus Overpower's severe TP drain). PLD also still has that Silence, GCD Stun and AoE Blind.

Bottom line, when played skillfully WAR is going to become "more efficient" than PLD for certain content, but WAR + PLD are both going to be viable tanks, and be a very very attractive combo.

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

Where are said changes?

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Hello, Warrior changes here.

I personally think they completely run in the opposite direction of the current design philosophy of Warriors. I mean, some mitigation options or increased self-healing would feel better, but the currently proposed changes make them look like Paladins with a greataxe. :p

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Originally Posted by Solduios

Warriors will replace PLD like a red headed step child in almost all 4 man content...

DPS Higher check ... AOE threat check .... good mitigation check ... High HP pool for lazy healers to work with check

Also wont be surprised to see war replace pld as MT in many raid boss fights.

TBH all they had to do to fix warrior was to change the way they healed them self's. Make some heals for a decent amount over a few seconds and make IB slightly better for burst reactive healing.... Instead they did the lazy fix which was mess with Warrior mitigation skills. I think this will bite them in the ass as HP scales so damn well with mitigation... but w/e.

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Though I shouldn't feed a troll...

1. 4 man content matters right? WP and AK can be completed without a tank or a healer (yes, there will a few deaths along the way).

2. Likely less overall stress on healers to heal warriors in 2.1 in comparison to current. If anything, healing a paladin is lazy/boring right now.

3. You apparently believe paladins should be the irreplaceable MT kings.... Now there will be a choice that won't (hopefully) cause the healers to cringe.

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Originally Posted by Solduios

Warriors will replace PLD like a red headed step child in almost all 4 man content...

DPS Higher check ... AOE threat check .... good mitigation check ... High HP pool for lazy healers to work with check

Also wont be surprised to see war replace pld as MT in many raid boss fights.

TBH all they had to do to fix warrior was to change the way they healed them self's. Make some heals for a decent amount over a few seconds and make IB slightly better for burst reactive healing.... Instead they did the lazy fix which was mess with Warrior mitigation skills. I think this will bite them in the ass as HP scales so damn well with mitigation... but w/e.

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Who cares about 4 man content? People will still run it with whatever, because none of it is hard enough to matter.

I'd be fine with WAR replacing PLD as MT in many raid boss fights, though I think you overestimate that one a bit. PLD is straight-up better for main-tanking T1 ADS, so you'll have at least 1 for Caduceus (at which point the whole idea of a "main tank" is relevant for... 1 minute? 2?). WAR+PLD will be ideal for T2 with 1 BRD + 1 PLD on silence duty. Turn 3 is irrelevant. PLD will be a better off-tank for Turn 4, just like it is now, and I'd be perfectly fine not just getting smacked around by Dreadnaughts. Turn 5 will be a wash.

Future content... we'll have to wait and see. Depends on game design going forward.

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Originally Posted by Amas

Who cares about 4 man content? People will still run it with whatever, because none of it is hard enough to matter.

I'd be fine with WAR replacing PLD as MT in many raid boss fights, though I think you overestimate that one a bit. PLD is straight-up better for main-tanking T1 ADS, so you'll have at least 1 for Caduceus (at which point the whole idea of a "main tank" is relevant for... 1 minute? 2?). WAR+PLD will be ideal for T2 with 1 BRD + 1 PLD on silence duty. Turn 3 is irrelevant. PLD will be a better off-tank for Turn 4, just like it is now, and I'd be perfectly fine not just getting smacked around by Dreadnaughts. Turn 5 will be a wash.

Future content... we'll have to wait and see. Depends on game design going forward.

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Ask that question to MNK's and DRG who pretty much get shunned atm for WP speed runs.

We already use our war to MT ADS and PLD to OT adds... and Caduceus we use our war to tank add that needs to be burned last. Our warrior did tank it up to 8 stacks so .. ya these changes are gonna make our raid make up easier. We already used PLD for add tanks cause they are just better with CD's at taking all those semi big hits and war on dread because with IB and well placed cool downs its not bad healing him.

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Originally Posted by Solduios

Ask that question to MNK's and DRG who pretty get shunned atm for WP speed runs.

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I restate my previous.

Who cares about 4 man content?

2.1 is going to expand mtome options and we've already been given indication via dev posts that current WP speed run tactics are not intended. Something will likely be changed. We'll have to wait and see what the most efficient farming paths will be.

While it's true that people do care about 4 mans, it's still silly using that as the proving ground. Overgearing the tar out of them and using specific team compositions for getting them done as quickly as possible is arguably the worst balancing metric you could ever use.

Yes, let's give Paladins 8 Foresight buttons, remove Bards (really, who likes them anyway? :p ) from the game and then turn Flare and Holy into DoTs instead. :p

Can't forget removing Cleric Stance as well. Uppity Healers thinking they should be able to be strong and independent...